Author Topic: Interesting Articles...  (Read 955283 times)

Offline aygart

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You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline etech0

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8146 on: December 04, 2017, 09:49:36 PM »
Workflowy. You won't know what you're missing until you try it.

Offline Ergel

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Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline ExGingi

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I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline David Smith

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8149 on: December 05, 2017, 09:27:16 AM »
Sounds like you're attempting to answer up the potential proof to this atheist's position from that chazal,  but that's not really an answer. עכשיו שנברא doesn't answer for the children we haven't had yet.

The answer to why we have children despite it being better not to be born is because Hashem told us to, and it ties back to why Hashem created man in the first place if we'd be better off never being born. That's obviously a much larger discussion.
The fact that as far as עולם הזה is concerned we'd be better off not existing is what proves that the only purpose of us being here is for a higher purpose. If we're going to think from an atheist prospective and try to chase worldly ambitions, the most logical move would be cessation of a purposeless and pointlessly frustrating existence. This article effectively rules out any purpose of existence but religion.

(From R' Shimshon Pinkus on the quoted Gemara, IIRC.)
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline Boruch999

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Offline Boruch999

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Offline shlonx

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Brevity may be the soul of wit, but floridity is its spirit.

Offline whYME

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8153 on: December 05, 2017, 10:00:07 AM »

Offline David Smith

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8154 on: December 05, 2017, 10:23:08 AM »
https://www.newyorker.com/culture/persons-of-interest/the-case-for-not-being-born
What a terrible argument to prove that people are better off not born. "We're hungry, tired, hot, and stuck in traffic. I'd commit, but death comes with its own set of problems." Sounds childish. He should've gone with the pointlessness of existence instead of the frustrations outweighing the joys.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline whYME

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8155 on: December 05, 2017, 10:31:31 AM »
He should've gone with the pointlessness of existence instead of the frustrations outweighing the joys.
Why is that two different things? presumably the frustrations outweighing the joys is what causes the pointlessness of existence. (in a hedonistic world)

Offline David Smith

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8156 on: December 05, 2017, 10:54:20 AM »
Why is that two different things? presumably the frustrations outweighing the joys is what causes the pointlessness of existence. (in a hedonistic world)
The displeasure of existence is subjective. The lack of meaningful accomplishment above nonexistence is not.
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8157 on: December 05, 2017, 11:01:55 AM »
The displeasure of existence is subjective. The lack of meaningful accomplishment above nonexistence is not.

Even after the third time, I still can't understand the second sentence. Is it missing some words?

Offline David Smith

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8158 on: December 05, 2017, 11:24:30 AM »
Even after the third time, I still can't understand the second sentence. Is it missing some words?
Accomplishment is often defined as the betterment of the world or the future. However, if each individual's life in meaningless in of itself and only derives meaning from the betterment of other aspects of humanity, than the sum totality of humanities purpose and accomplishment is zero. The same goes for betterment of the future, as your life can't have purpose by bettering something that also doesn't or won't have purpose. Hence, the same is being accomplished by everything existing that would be accomplished by nothing existing. Absent an outside or otherwise necessity, existence has no greater total purpose and accomplishment over nonexistence. From an atheist prospective, this is a compelling non subjective argument for the merit of not being born. (By extension, this is also the reason why morals can't exist outside religion.)
Who do you think you are fooling? You think you are going to pull a quick one on your Creator? Good luck with that.
JTZ

Offline Boruch999

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #8159 on: December 05, 2017, 11:51:38 AM »
Accomplishment is often defined as the betterment of the world or the future. However, if each individual's life in meaningless in of itself and only derives meaning from the betterment of other aspects of humanity, than the sum totality of humanities purpose and accomplishment is zero. The same goes for betterment of the future, as your life can't have purpose by bettering something that also doesn't or won't have purpose. Hence, the same is being accomplished by everything existing that would be accomplished by nothing existing. Absent an outside or otherwise necessity, existence has no greater total purpose and accomplishment over nonexistence. From an atheist prospective, this is a compelling non subjective argument for the merit of not being born. (By extension, this is also the reason why morals can't exist outside religion.)

Got it. Well said.