Author Topic: Interesting Articles...  (Read 956177 times)

Offline yesitsme

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9345 on: August 05, 2018, 08:42:04 PM »
Anyone who is familiar with Ethical Veganism knows that at the root of the movement is the rejection of the “commodity status” of animals- the idea that animals can be owned or used for human purposes. Vegans consider man,too, to be an animal, and as one species in the animal kingdom, man has no right to "exploit other animals" for his own needs. This idea that man is just another animal is not a philosophy that just happened to take root amongst the masses. It is promoted in the highest echelons of Academia, and at the most prestigious universities in the country. And there is a payoff for those preaching this philosophy; the corollary of this idea is that man has no true bechirah, no free will; man is just another animal, albeit a smarter animal, yet guided by the same instincts that predetermine his choices in life, just like all animals.Therefore there is no moral imperative for one to work on himself, no absolute good and evil, just the predetermined path in life that mans animal instincts lead him along. 
 
Yet the Torah tells us that man is not just another animal. Man alone has bechira, and the entire universe was created for man to exercise his bechira, his free will. Animals were created to provide food, clothing, and labor for man, the purpose of creation. And the Torah did not limit the use of animals to Avrohom, Yitchak, and Yaakov, and our other holy forefathers, although they certainly were able to elevate the animal to a lofty purpose, in their use of animals to further their serving Hashem on their exalted level. The Torah obligates every simple Jew to wear leather Tefillin on his arm, wool tzitzis on his body, place a mezuzah on his door, and read from a Torah made from animal hide. this is diametrically opposed to the adherents to the ethical veganism  philosophy, who place man and beast on equal footing; the movement is antithetical to the core principles of the Torah.
How do the vagetarians learn the sugyah of 'Chardel'? Based on what you posted if a man passes a neighbor that's baking kokosh cake and he gets teased and therefor he went to the bakery he could bill the neighbor that baked the cake since the neighbor caused him nezek the amount he spent in the bakery.

Offline henche

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9346 on: August 05, 2018, 08:50:24 PM »
Do dees ppl no wear tefillin?

Or have mezuzos? Or sefer torah?

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9347 on: August 05, 2018, 10:14:34 PM »
You are missing #11 which is predicated on bechirah that distinguishes man from animal as discussed extensively in the rishonim...

Sorry, you’re grasping at straws.

How did that article contradict:

11. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards those who observe His commandments, and punishes those who transgress His commandments.


Offline moko

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9348 on: August 05, 2018, 10:57:33 PM »
Do dees ppl no wear tefillin?

Or have mezuzos? Or sefer torah?
synthetic? After all, if the heilige streimel is synthetic I'm sure you can find d a dispensation for tefillin (after all שבת= שטריימעל במקום תפילין)

Online ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9349 on: August 05, 2018, 11:01:11 PM »
Which one of the 13 principles does it contradict?
I didn't read the article, but I second the motion that "ethical" veganism is based on kefira (and goes along with other behaviors which I consider highly unethical, that could be practiced by "ethical" vegans or vegetarians). That being said, as long as it's a personal choice and not politicized or imposed on others, it could theoretically come from a positive perspective, as long as one doesn't consider it wrong.

In a similar manner there was a person I know who used to tell me that he enjoys going to the park and feeding the birds, and felt that he was helping the birds by doing so. I told him that I don't think there is any issur in feeding wild birds, but if one does so he is helping the birds, or saving them from hunger, that might border on kefirah.

How does it not contradict:

א - אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה. שֶׁהַבּוֹרֵא יִתְבָּרַךְ שְׁמוֹ הוּא בּוֹרֵא וּמַנְהִיג לְכָל הַבְּרוּאִים. וְהוּא לְבַדּוֹ עָשָׂה וְעוֹשֶׂה וְיַעֲשֶׂה לְכָל הַמַּעֲשִׂים:
ו - אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה. שֶׁכָּל דִּבְרֵי נְבִיאִים אֱמֶת:
ח - אֲנִי מַאֲמִין בֶּאֱמוּנָה שְׁלֵמָה. שֶׁכָּל הַתּוֹרָה הַמְּצוּיָה עַתָּה בְיָדֵינוּ הִיא הַנְּתוּנָה לְמֹשֶׁה רַבֵּנוּ עָלָיו הַשָּׁלוֹם:

All הלכות שחיטה are part of torah.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 12:19:51 AM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Online ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9350 on: August 06, 2018, 12:23:45 AM »
Do dees ppl no wear tefillin?

Or have mezuzos? Or sefer torah?

A person who my FIL was mekarev many years ago (is now a chassidishe* person with a large family of chassidishe children and grandchildren) initially refused the offer to don tefillin due to ethical vegetarianism, but agreed when my FIL explained that they could be made out of נבילות.

*) the term chassidishe is used here as it is used in Lubavitch.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9351 on: August 06, 2018, 12:41:25 AM »
Sorry, you’re grasping at straws.

How did that article contradict:

11. I believe with complete faith that the Creator, blessed be His name, rewards those who observe His commandments, and punishes those who transgress His commandments.

My statement was “The guiding philosophy of the ethical vegan movement is unabashed kefira”

Don’t take my work for it. Read up on “ethical Veganism” of which the article was extolling the virtues, and the two men were self described as being part of that worldwide community and belief system. Read up on their literature, and on the nuances of the various strains of veganism and how they view the commodity status of animals, and the underpinnings of their philosophy, and then you can came back here and tell me that their belief system is in consonance with #11.

To make it easier for you let me quote from Wikipedia:

Ethical veganism is based on opposition to speciesism, the assignment of value to individuals on the basis of species membership alone”

And regarding speciesism:

“Anti-speciesists argue that the extension of moral membership to all humanity, regardless of individual properties such as intelligence, while denying it to nonhumans, also regardless of individual properties, is internally inconsistent. According to the argument from marginal cases, if infants, the senile, the comatose, and the cognitively disabled (marginal-case human beings) have a certain moral status, then nonhuman animals must be awarded that status too, since there is no morally relevant ability that the marginal-case humans have that nonhumans lack.

American legal scholar Steven M. Wise argues that speciesism is a bias as arbitrary as any other. He cites the philosopher R.G. Frey (1941–2012), a leading animal rights critic, who wrote in 1983 that, if forced to choose between abandoning experiments on animals and allowing experiments on "marginal-case" humans, he would choose the latter, "not because I begin a monster and end up choosing the monstrous, but because I cannot think of anything at all compelling that cedes all human life of any quality greater value than animal life of any quality"

Richard Dawkins, the evolutionary biologist, argued against speciesism in The Blind Watchmaker(1986), The Great Ape Project (1993), and The God Delusion (2006), elucidating the connection with evolutionary theory. He compares former racist attitudes and assumptions to their present-day speciesist counterparts. In the chapter "The one true tree of life" in The Blind Watchmaker, he argues that it is not only zoological taxonomy that is saved from awkward ambiguity by the extinction of intermediate forms, but also human ethics and law. Dawkins argues that what he calls the "discontinuous mind" is ubiquitous, dividing the world into units that reflect nothing but our use of language, and animals into discontinuous species:

The director of a zoo is entitled to "put down" a chimpanzee that is surplus to requirements, while any suggestion that he might "put down" a redundant keeper or ticket-seller would be greeted with howls of incredulous outrage. The chimpanzee is the property of the zoo. Humans are nowadays not supposed to be anybody's property, yet the rationale for discriminating against chimpanzees is seldom spelled out, and I doubt if there is a defensible rationale at all. Such is the breathtaking speciesism of our Christian-inspired attitudes, the abortion of a single human zygote (most of them are destined to be spontaneously aborted anyway) can arouse more moral solicitude and righteous indignation than the vivisection of any number of intelligent adult chimpanzees! ... The only reason we can be comfortable with such a double standard is that the intermediates between humans and chimps are all dead“


(Tangentially, it is interesting to note that many Nazi leaders were animal rights advocates. In fact, in his private diaries, Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels described Hitler as a vegetarian whose hatred of the Jewish and Christian religions in part stemmed from the ethical distinction these faiths drew between the value of humans and the value of "other animals".)

Do you think that one can consider man to be just another animal among the others, have no superiority in any way, and as an animal having no right to treat any other animal as his property, yet still believe in #11?

We are not talking about someone who eats vegetarian or vegan for health reasons, or has a hang up with meat or blood etc.- we are talking about the “ethical veganism” the article is specifically describing, although it does not use that term. Please educate yourself regarding the movement .
« Last Edit: August 06, 2018, 01:19:20 AM by Yard sale »

Offline Jellybelly

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9352 on: August 06, 2018, 02:26:26 AM »
http://www.mishpacha.com/Browse/Article/10807/Wheres-the-Beef

The guiding philosophy of the ethical vegan movement is unabashed kefira. I can’t believe Mishpacha Magazine is giving a platform to these people
does anyone know who the mishpachas das Torah is? I remember years ago, they had rabbi neustadt from Cleveland/Detroit /Lakewood, but now it just says they have a “rabbinical board” I once tried calling them and asking them who’s on the board and they wouldn’t tell me... does anyone know?

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9353 on: August 06, 2018, 11:07:30 AM »
does anyone know who the mishpachas das Torah is? I remember years ago, they had rabbi neustadt from Cleveland/Detroit /Lakewood, but now it just says they have a “rabbinical board” I once tried calling them and asking them who’s on the board and they wouldn’t tell me... does anyone know?

A friend of mine incorporated parts of what I wrote into a letter he sent Mishpacha. From the response of the Rabbinical Board it sounds like they are going to do some sort of retraction.....

Offline Dan

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9354 on: August 06, 2018, 11:12:50 AM »
*) the term chassidishe is used here as it is used in Lubavitch.
I've never thought about it, but is that usage unique to Lubavitchers?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9355 on: August 06, 2018, 11:14:53 AM »
I've never thought about it, but is that usage unique to Lubavitchers?
Sure. Everywhere else it's pronounced differently and usually just means someone that wears a Shtreimel (IINM). At the risk of being (virtually) stoned here, I will say that in Lubavitch that word says something about the Pnimius of a person, whereas elsewhere it is just about Chitzoinius.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Dan

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9356 on: August 06, 2018, 11:16:49 AM »
Sure. Everywhere else it's pronounced differently and usually just means someone that wears a Shtreimel (IINM).
What would the term be to refer to someone who is very mekushar or exemplary chosid?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9357 on: August 06, 2018, 11:23:22 AM »
What would the term be to refer to someone who is very mekushar or exemplary chosid?
IDK. Maybe Choshuv? (which in Lubavitch is a shunned upon term).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline moko

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9358 on: August 06, 2018, 11:58:32 AM »
What would the term be to refer to someone who is very mekushar or exemplary chosid?
a vegan chosid?  :)

Offline elya

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Re: Interesting Articles...
« Reply #9359 on: August 06, 2018, 01:38:15 PM »