Author Topic: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder  (Read 10989 times)

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #80 on: February 17, 2025, 12:23:05 AM »
it was, is the age old politician vs. general argument. From a military perspective it made sense, from a political one not so much. It's an argument we've had here a billion times, can Israel tell America to pound sand.


Except people who would usually take the military side of the debate are taking the political side *because of their feelings about the two primary politicians involved*.

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #81 on: February 17, 2025, 02:38:32 AM »
, is the age old politician vs. general argument. From a military perspective it made sense, from a political one not so much. It's an argument we've had here a billion times, can Israel tell America to pound sand.
I think on 10/11, when Biden was still talking like he cared about Israel, it would've been counterintuitive to defy him, but there is definitely a case to be made.
Except the politician involved, Gallant, (he has been in politics for a decade!) is still talking like a general. His nonchalantness about international reactions is appropriate from a general, not from the civilian leadership.

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2025, 07:12:45 AM »
Except people who would usually take the military side of the debate are taking the political side *because of their feelings about the two primary politicians involved*.
The inverse is true as well here.

Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2025, 07:23:21 AM »
The inverse is true as well here.
Who?

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Offline Chuchum Ainer

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2025, 07:48:33 AM »
Yoav Gallant
My question was, who is taking the military side when they would usually take the politician's side. Do you mean on DDF or in general?

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #86 on: February 17, 2025, 07:55:08 AM »
My question was, who is taking the military side when they would usually take the politician's side. Do you mean on DDF or in general?
I meant Yoav Gallant.
I was using his point to point out that Gallant is being disingenuous here, as he was the lead US govt advocate in the war cabinet.  For example his willingness to give up on Philadelphia corridor for a hostage deal.
But when he needed a cudgel to use against Netanyahu, he suddenly stopped caring about what his friend LLoyd had to say.

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #87 on: February 17, 2025, 08:13:22 AM »
I meant Yoav Gallant.
I was using his point to point out that Gallant is being disingenuous here, as he was the lead US govt advocate in the war cabinet.  For example his willingness to give up on Philadelphia corridor for a hostage deal.
But when he needed a cudgel to use against Netanyahu, he suddenly stopped caring about what his friend LLoyd had to say.
Ah I get it now.
I don't disagree in general, but in this one instance the reporting beshaato bears out the premise that he was against bowing to US pressure.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #88 on: February 17, 2025, 09:39:25 AM »
Yoav Gallant

I was referring to DDFers, but I hear you

I was using his point to point out that Gallant is being disingenuous here, as he was the lead US govt advocate in the war cabinet.  For example his willingness to give up on Philadelphia corridor for a hostage deal.
But when he needed a cudgel to use against Netanyahu, he suddenly stopped caring about what his friend LLoyd had to say.

Ah I get it now.
I don't disagree in general, but in this one instance the reporting beshaato bears out the premise that he was against bowing to US pressure.

To put a finer point on this answer, Gallant is going on a press tour now pounding his chest putting forward his case. But like CA says, the reporting at the time aligns with his story, and no one on the Bibi side denies he pushed this strategy. We've even had this argument on this very thread months ago. His strategy now doesn't contradict it - he has has always been for stronger military action in order to get a better deal - kind of a hybrid military-political view. I don't agree with it, I think the only thing you look at to save lives is what military actions will save the most lives and you figure out the politics after, and I don't like his political posturing now about it either.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #89 on: February 17, 2025, 10:28:54 AM »
I was referring to DDFers, but I hear you

To put a finer point on this answer, Gallant is going on a press tour now pounding his chest putting forward his case AND ISN'T BEING CHALLENGED in interviews.

FTFY.

(The fact that he isn't being challenged/questioned with things that even we on DDF can see, screams volumes).
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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2025, 10:34:09 AM »
Except people who would usually take the military side of the debate are taking the political side *because of their feelings about the two primary politicians involved*.

I was referring to DDFers, but I hear you

Not sure who you might be referring to. Could you show examples?
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #91 on: February 17, 2025, 11:13:25 AM »


FTFY.

(The fact that he isn't being challenged/questioned with things that even we on DDF can see, screams volumes).
DDF answers haven't been all that convincing, TBH. The ones that aren't based on Gallant derision (an understandable viewpoint) seem to ignore that we actually have evidence of how Gallant's plan would have played out and that it was planned for two decades for exactly this moment - and then they didn't go for it.

As for the media's treatment of Gallant - I have no knowledge of that, though there is a robust media in Israel that would be able to challenge his assertions even if he wasn't giving them interviews. Dan Senor's podcast is hardly the avenue for such challenges.

Not sure who you might be referring to. Could you show examples?

I was referring to yawn's assertion that this debate boils down to the political vs military debate, which I largely agree with, but was pointing out that people like you who would usually prioritize military over politics have reversed that and sided with the political side because of who proposed it.

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #92 on: February 17, 2025, 11:44:41 AM »
DDF answers haven't been all that convincing, TBH. The ones that aren't based on Gallant derision (an understandable viewpoint) seem to ignore that we actually have evidence of how Gallant's plan would have played out and that it was planned for two decades for exactly this moment - and then they didn't go for it.
Actualy, we don't.
There are uncountable variables that are different in the situation. Securitywise, geopoliticaly wise, etc....
Its changing the entire track of history.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #93 on: February 17, 2025, 12:25:18 PM »
Actualy, we don't.
There are uncountable variables that are different in the situation. Securitywise, geopoliticaly wise, etc....
Its changing the entire track of history.

Except many of the different variables point to even greater success in all those areas.

There is a continued denial of what we now *know* to be true:
Like what you wrote earlier:

That's exactly what Gallant is doing. He's Monday Morning Quarterbacking his own game where he fumbled the ball badly, and blaming the coach for not agreeing to run the crazy hook and ladder Statue of Liberty play that he drew up to beat the other team in the division which is going to be playing Monday Night football.

Like CA said, this was the plan they drew up well in advance of the game:

Claim: Ability Kill Hezbollah leadership - they had intel on the whereabouts of Nasrallah and all the top leadership, proven true because that's exactly what they did. The only variable is that on Oct 11 they knew of an even greater number of leaders that would at the meeting.
Claim: bomb missile stockpiles based on knowledge of whereabouts. Proven true because that's exactly what they did. The variable is that many were moved after Oct and they would have destroyed even more.
Beeper operation is a little murkier. We know:
1) The beepers were mostly not in circulation yet (I don't know how many of the 4000 were operational).
2) 15000 radios were operational, and they were a bigger, deadlier explosive.
3) The beeper operation was done because it was use it or lose it.

Claim: If the operation would have been planned and not use or lose, it would have come after the first 2 parts of the plan, after decimating leadership and their ability to send missiles to "destroy Tel Aviv", the fighters don their vests as they go out to war, and you can wait/make certain moved to make sure they don their vests, and then boom - any active fighter - up to 15000, is dead.

Counter claim: We don't know that they will wear their vests?

Other counter claims:
Army was in disarray. This required air force missions which do not require the kind of ground mobilization that was in disarray. The radios didn't even need that. If anything, to me this gives the ground troops extra time to mobilize and get organized while the air force and intel is wrecking Hezbollah entirely without ground ops.
Bibi couldn't trust Gallant because he'd just screwed up in Gaza on Oct 7: True. But he also knew that this plan was in place for years and had a great likelihood of success as hindsight proves correct.
Shmulevitz: This was in the south, and this has not been raised as a counter claim by anyone in the Bibi camp at all (to my knowledge). In general, I don't know that any info about this scandal is reliable - from any side.
We aren't privy to all the info: Well, we never are, and that has never stopped us from opining on any other topic.

Which leave the main counter claim: Politics. This includes American reaction, Israeli opposition reaction, and not trusting a political foe in Gallant. Now, those are valid concerns. My main contention is those who prioritize military operations over political maneuvering, as I do, should side with Gallant *in this instance* even if he is usually a [insert desired adjective/expletive]. The fact that people who would are not ding so is based on politics and not the strategy.

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #94 on: February 17, 2025, 01:30:15 PM »
We might have to agree to disagree.

The plan was drawn up well in advance, true. But the plan did not take into account any of the new facts on the ground.
Its like insisting to use the same gameplan that you planned for tom Brady to use, even though you lost your entire o line and backfield. and haven't even put the subs into the game. Bradys gonna get killed.

The point about the ground army being is disarray is that there are variables in the ground game that you havent even considered bec they didn't happen at any point, but they need to be considered. This has nothing do with the question if they had the ability to go into Lebanon on the ground.
The entire threat of a widening of the war to include other actors like egypt, jordan, syria and its militias, iran, other ... for which you must maintain a strategic reserve, even if it is not likely.
The very real threat of an internal rebellion by Israeli Arabs, like in 2014, but worse.
The real problem they had with securing the entire border with the west bank, securing all the yishuvim from being over run by wb arabs.

I've never been a go tell the Americans to pound sand person, so I guess you would agree that it's OK for me to be sceptical about Gallant's claims?

ETA: the point that we know that it would have worked now is irrelevant. They did not know that in the moment.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 01:45:02 PM by yfr bachur »

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #95 on: February 17, 2025, 01:41:16 PM »

As for the media's treatment of Gallant - I have no knowledge of that, though there is a robust media in Israel that would be able to challenge his assertions even if he wasn't giving them interviews. Dan Senor's podcast is hardly the avenue for such challenges.

ROFLMAO.

Could you please remind me where Bibi spent several hours during the day today and why?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 01:48:38 PM by ExGingi »
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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #96 on: February 17, 2025, 01:48:07 PM »
Shmulevitz: This was in the south, and this has not been raised as a counter claim by anyone in the Bibi camp at all (to my knowledge). In general, I don't know that any info about this scandal is reliable - from any side.
We aren't privy to all the info: Well, we never are, and that has never stopped us from opining on any other topic.

So you are the CEO of the cruise line that built the Titanic, and another twin "unsinkable" vessel  [Or possibly a bigger more grandiose unsinkable ship designed and built by the same team] was built at the same time and scheuled to go to South Africa (with a sojourn to Antarctica and on to Australia) the day after the Titanic was scheduled to arrive in NY.

The Titanic sinks, and you just go on as planned?

🙄

And in this specific case the reason certain operations were not carried out is SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE it turned out that not only are we not privy to all the info, much has been withheld from the CEO, and from various others. And they KNOW for certain that they DON'T KNOW something vitally important.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2025, 02:00:29 PM by ExGingi »
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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #97 on: February 17, 2025, 01:48:45 PM »
BTW, if no one was paying attention, now we know why the IDF was so against us sending privately supplied equipment to the soldiers in the early days of the war. They knew what they had done to Hezbollahs supply lines, and were afraid of it being done to them.

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #98 on: February 17, 2025, 02:15:09 PM »
So you are the CEO of the cruise line that built the Titanic, and another twin "unsinkable" vessel  [Or possibly a bigger more grandiose unsinkable ship designed and built by the same team] was built at the same time and scheuled to go to South Africa (with a sojourn to Antarctica and on to Australia) the day after the Titanic was scheduled to arrive in NY.

The Titanic sinks, and you just go on as planned?

🙄

And in this specific case the reason certain operations were not carried out is SPECIFICALLY BECAUSE it turned out that not only are we not privy to all the info, much has been withheld from the CEO, and from various others. And they KNOW for certain that they DON'T KNOW something vitally important.

It's a valid claim at the time, but using hindsight, we know that the previously made plans were executed to higher level of success than anyone outside of the planners could have dreamed of. So now you can say, "we made the best decision we could at the time because we didn't trust the people in charge after their Gaza blunder, but in retrospect it would have probably worked out", or you can say, "we made the decision at the time and it was the correct decision, all evidence to the contrary be damned."

Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Yoav Gallant On Dan Senor's podcast: Bibi's October 11th Blunder
« Reply #99 on: February 17, 2025, 02:58:11 PM »
We might have to agree to disagree.
[...]
ETA: the point that we know that it would have worked now is irrelevant. They did not know that in the moment.
Indeed, and I don't know that your position now contradicts earlier ones you have. The basis of this conversation, when it began months ago, was that Bibi did not execute the war in the best way possible and made mistakes based on trying to appease various parties politically (pun acknowledged ambivalently), this being an example. Others countered that his was the correct decision, even in hindsight.


The plan was drawn up well in advance, true. But the plan did not take into account any of the new facts on the ground.
Its like insisting to use the same gameplan that you planned for tom Brady to use, even though you lost your entire o line and backfield. and haven't even put the subs into the game. Bradys gonna get killed.

When was the plan drawn up for? Certainly not a preemptive attack. The whole idea is that when the time comes you can unleash havoc, destroy the leadership, 80% of the missiles, and thousands of their fighters without mobilizing a single ground soldier. In many ways, the chaotic facts on the ground only serve to underscore the value of such an attack.

I appreciate the repeated football mashalim, so I'll say it's like when the opposition kills the o line, backfield, and Brady, so Bellichik uses the intel from his undetected spygate cams and gets Mahomes to bribe the refs