Marry Young / Shidduch Crisis

[Ephcc90]

I always thought of the problem as follows:

There are 10 boys sitting in a room. 10 girls walk in.
All 10 boys want to go out with 6 out of the 10 girls.
6 boys marry the 6 “top” girls.
6 new boys come into the room. 6 new girls come into the room.
4 out of the 6 new girls are “top” girls.
6 boys marry 6 girls, 4 of which are the new “top” girls.
There are two “non-top” girls remaining from the original cohort that continue to get pushed to the bottom as all new boys want to go out with new “top” girls.

The real issue imho is that a boy is, on average, a more desirable commodity than an average girl such that they can get dates with “top” girls, thereby leaving “non-top” girls behind.

Why boys are considered “better” on average than girls such that they can get “top” girls I will leave to others to speculate.

*note: what is “top” or “non-top” is highly subjective and these are just broad generalizations (not c”vs calling someone single non-top).

[Shmulie]

I always thought of the problem as follows:

There are 10 boys sitting in a room. 10 girls walk in.
All 10 boys want to go out with 6 out of the 10 girls.
6 boys marry the 6 “top” girls.
6 new boys come into the room. 6 new girls come into the room.
4 out of the 6 new girls are “top” girls.
6 boys marry 6 girls, 4 of which are the new “top” girls.
There are two “non-top” girls remaining from the original cohort that continue to get pushed to the bottom as all new boys want to go out with new “top” girls.

The real issue imho is that a boy is, on average, a more desirable commodity than an average girl such that they can get dates with “top” girls, thereby leaving “non-top” girls behind.

Why boys are considered “better” on average than girls such that they can get “top” girls I will leave to others to speculate.

*note: what is “top” or “non-top” is highly subjective and these are just broad generalizations (not c”vs calling someone single non-top).

And how many of those four remaining from the first group are remaining after the second six get married?

[S209]

If you know of some, maybe we can make something happen. I asked around for my friend to about 10 people, and every time I hear crickets. Perhaps my age-group is bad for networking.

PMd

[Shmulie]

I'm not sure how people don't see this, but there is definitely an issue in the Yeshivish world with a percentage of boys (and/or their mothers) having crazy expectations and demands that quite frankly have zero to do with Yiddishkeit and cause a tremendous amount of pain.

It goes both ways. Some women also have crazy expectations

[yuneeq]

I always thought of the problem as follows:

There are 10 boys sitting in a room. 10 girls walk in.
All 10 boys want to go out with 6 out of the 10 girls.
6 boys marry the 6 “top” girls.
6 new boys come into the room. 6 new girls come into the room.
4 out of the 6 new girls are “top” girls.
6 boys marry 6 girls, 4 of which are the new “top” girls.
There are two “non-top” girls remaining from the original cohort that continue to get pushed to the bottom as all new boys want to go out with new “top” girls.

The real issue imho is that a boy is, on average, a more desirable commodity than an average girl such that they can get dates with “top” girls, thereby leaving “non-top” girls behind.

Why boys are considered “better” on average than girls such that they can get “top” girls I will leave to others to speculate.

*note: what is “top” or “non-top” is highly subjective and these are just broad generalizations (not c”vs calling someone single non-top).

This would explain why older girls (can we refer to dating singles as women/men?) don't get dates while older boys do. But that wouldn't explain a glut of girls compared to boys. Or perhaps there is no gap and the fact that fewer girls go out on dates only makes it feel like there are fewer boys available.

[pbf]

There are plenty of girls (and boys) that are still single in their 30's and not getting dates...

More than there used to be?
Again, I’m single and have a group of single friends but I don’t think it’s because of a crisis. I just haven’t met the right one yet.

[S209]

Why boys are considered “better” on average than girls such that they can get “top” girls I will leave to others to speculate.

+1 on your point. Why are they considered “better”? Because, for reasons real or imagined, they are considered a scarcer commodity. Many people assume (and R’ Elya Ber was arguing) it’s because there are straight up less boys in the parsha at any given time than there are girls. Even if it’s manufactured, the perception of scarcity is certainly there, leading to the issue you are describing.

Some hypothetical solutions I’ve heard proposed are having the girl give the yes first or other things that take the initiative out of the hand of the boy. But they are all bandaids and probably doomed to fail as long as the perception (or more likely reality) of scarcity is prevalent. It’s simple universal market dynamics.

[ckmk47]

My thoughts on "top" girl or boy.
For a boy to be "top", he needs to be able to sit in yeshiva, capable of learning, and while he's there, daven with a minyan.  And if he's really special, he has good midos too.
For a girl to be "top" she's got to have good looks and midos.
So it's easier to be a top girl than a top boy.
Then the Bais Yakov system ranks full time learning as the model for a top boy. So she's only looking for a top boy.
So it makes the numbers game worse.

[Ephcc90]

This would explain why older girls (can we refer to dating singles as women/men?) don't get dates while older boys do. But that wouldn't explain a glut of girls compared to boys. Or perhaps there is no gap and the fact that fewer girls go out on dates only makes it feel like there are fewer boys available.

I'm generally a fan of data and so don't really want to comment on the number of available men/women, but my inclination is that there are, in fact, more "Bais Yaakov" type women that go through seminary than there are boys that go through Bais Medrash, leading to the market dynamics described above. But I have no proof or data that this is true. 

I do think it is indisputable that the driver of crisis is the power imbalance, greatly exasperated by the ease with which a resume can be disregarded.

[yelped]

Why boys are considered “better” on average than girls such that they can get “top” girls I will leave to others to speculate.

+1 on your point. Why are they considered “better”? Because, for reasons real or imagined, they are considered a scarcer commodity.

It ties in to the same issue I described before. In the Yeshivish system, there are people who treat shidduchim and their "top boys" as a way to leverage "support" for a specified amount of years, and of course the girl has to be A1++++ in all aspects, they would never settle for less, after all, their boy is so choshuv, etc (see video of Rav Ahron Leib Shteinman for his apt description of such people). That I think is the crux of the issue and why we don't see this in the Chassidesh world, where there are no expectations of support and the boy learns as much they are able to while living independently (besides for initial marriage costs) and then goes to work.

[yuneeq]

The real issue imho is that a boy is, on average, a more desirable commodity than an average girl such that they can get dates with “top” girls, thereby leaving “non-top” girls behind.

Why boys are considered “better” on average than girls such that they can get “top” girls I will leave to others to speculate.

Just remembered - outside the frum world, there are studies showing that men, on average, have more partner relationships than women (14-7). There may be issues with the data, but it makes sense in the idea that many men gravitate towards few women and can create disproportionate gaps.

[cmey]

Unreasonable expectations, confused priorities....

So Lewenstein is confused and thinks the girls are reasonable and just looking for normal boys but in your estimation everyone has it all wrong and that’s why the girls aren’t getting any calls?

[yuneeq]

I'm generally a fan of data and so don't really want to comment on the number of available men/women, but my inclination is that there are, in fact, more "Bais Yaakov" type women that go through seminary than there are boys that go through Bais Medrash, leading to the market dynamics described above. But I have no proof or data that this is true. 

I do think it is indisputable that the driver of crisis is the power imbalance, greatly exasperated by the ease with which a resume can be disregarded.

Then perhaps the best solution is to educate girls to marry frum boys even if *gasp* they aren't going to kollel and didn't learn in beis medrash for 4 years. After all 5 years later most of them will be married to the guy they wouldn't have even dated...

[aygart]

So Lewenstein is confused and thinks the girls are reasonable and just looking for normal boys but in your estimation everyone has it all wrong and that’s why the girls aren’t getting any calls?

For the third time

That still does not mean it is not from personal choices. It is totally possible that the people being hurt are not the same as the ones making these choices.

[cmey]

I don't think there is a shidduch crisis (and I am what society would coin an 'older single').

Yes, girls get married older, but that's not a bad thing. So you have a lot single girls at age 23, 24 etc than you did 20 years ago.

But for the most part they get married at a relatively young age.

If you look at a grade of 30 year olds, I doubt there would be more unmarried than there was 20 years ago with a grade of 30 year olds then.

Just my 2 cents.

They went through the alumni classes of a bunch of beis yaakov’s and came up with some pretty grim numbers. As was mentioned by the convention even if most get married by the time 10 years passes they have gone through gehenom and are no longer the same girls they once were.

[cmey]

For the third time

I give up trying to decipher the riddle

[aygart]

I give up trying to decipher the riddle

Just because they are the ones hurt does not mean it was those poor choice. Someone else's poor choices can be hurting them.

[aygart]

Then perhaps the best solution is to educate girls to marry frum boys even if *gasp* they aren't going to kollel and didn't learn in beis medrash for 4 years. After all 5 years later most of them will be married to the guy they wouldn't have even dated...

They wouldn't even be satisfied with the person they dated

[Shmulie]

I'm generally a fan of data and so don't really want to comment on the number of available men/women, but my inclination is that there are, in fact, more "Bais Yaakov" type women that go through seminary than there are boys that go through Bais Medrash, leading to the market dynamics described above. But I have no proof or data that this is true. 

I do think it is indisputable that the driver of crisis is the power imbalance, greatly exasperated by the ease with which a resume can be disregarded.

So in that case there should be a shidduch crisis the opposite way (higher number of single men) in the bit more modern type (workers)

[Ephcc90]

So in that case there should be a shidduch crisis the opposite way (higher number of single men) in the bit more modern type (workers)

Anecdotally, I do think it is much much harder for the “more modern types” as compared to the average BMG guy.