Marry Young / Shidduch Crisis

[S209]

I think you're joining too many people under 1 definition, many many lakewood people will marry into families that don't fit the lakewood definition. To assume everyone in lakewood marries into a family that fits that description is just silly.

Of course everyone in Lakewood doesn’t marry the same type, but each type is presumably marrying their own type irrespective of where they are located. So the birth rate as a stand-alone statistic works regardless of average family size- because the same numbers would be used equally elsewhere.

In shorter: If the birthdate is higher because of the families that have more children, those people are likely also marrying others with more children. The people with less children will presumably marry others with less children. Location is irrelevant.

[avromie7]

Of course everyone in Lakewood doesn’t marry the same type, but each type is presumably marrying their own type irrespective of where they are located. So the birth rate as a stand-alone statistic works regardless of average family size- because the same numbers would be used equally elsewhere.

In shorter: If the birthdate is higher because of the families that have more children, those people are likely also marrying others with more children. The people with less children will presumably marry others with less children. Location is irrelevant.

IMO there are way too many assumptions. People very often marry into families that are very different than their own. Similar types of families in town vs OOT can also change things. I'm sure there are others that I'm missing.

[S209]

IMO there are way too many assumptions. People very often marry into families that are very different than their own. Similar types of families in town vs OOT can also change things. I'm sure there are others that I'm missing.

All true, but to say as OP did that the Lakewood birth rate isn’t a good starting point for back of the envelope calculations *because* people in Lakewood are more likely to have larger families isn’t a valid point, as that isn’t *necessarily* true to the detriment of the families those people are likely to marry into.

[lubaby]

Can we get a wiki of all the proposed issues and all the proposed solutions?

No need for a wiki. The issue is there are not enough proposals.

[jye]

The only issue causing all of our crises is cherem dirabeinu gershom. Most Lakewood houses already come with Main Wife, Basement Wife, and Attic Wife apartments. First two wives support husband in kollel/ Rebbe job. The third wife can afford to be a low paid teacher. Two crises solved. More Rabbeim and teachers equals slots for every kid. Third crisis bites the dust.

Although that would create a new crisis: three mother in laws....

[yuneeq]

More Rabbeim and teachers equals slots for every kid.

But now you have 3x the kids and a brand new crisis

[aygart]

The only issue causing all of our crises is cherem dirabeinu gershom. Most Lakewood houses already come with Main Wife, Basement Wife, and Attic Wife apartments. First two wives support husband in kollel/ Rebbe job. The third wife can afford to be a low paid teacher. Two crises solved. More Rabbeim and teachers equals slots for every kid. Third crisis bites the dust.

Although that would create a new crisis: three mother in laws....

And here I thought it was from women surviving childbirth

[yuneeq]

A gentile employee mentioned he is going on a date set up through a matchmaker. I asked him about the process and I found it pretty interesting.

In his case, the woman reached out to the matchmaker, and he was narrowed down as a candidate. The matchmaker interviewed him for an hour, ran a background check, but did not ask for any references. The woman agreed to the match, and now they're going out next week.

For setting up the match, the matchmaker earns a minimum of $2,000, or $10,000 on the higher-end. This fee, along with the bill of a 5 star dinner is paid by the woman since she initiated the match. The matchmaker doesn't get paid for any future dates, nor if they get engaged or married. They also offer packages of 6 matches for a slightly lower fee, with partial refund if they get married before using up all their matches.

The matchmaker does not give last names to each other, and doesn't share pictures. There is no calling or messaging each other directly before the date, it is completely blind.

Note - he isn't religious or part of any cultural group, just a regular American.

[yuneeq]

A gentile employee mentioned he is going on a date set up through a matchmaker. I asked him about the process and I found it pretty interesting.

In his case, the woman reached out to the matchmaker, and he was narrowed down as a candidate. The matchmaker interviewed him for an hour, ran a background check, but did not ask for any references. The woman agreed to the match, and now they're going out next week.

For setting up the match, the matchmaker earns a minimum of $2,000, or $10,000 on the higher-end. This fee, along with the bill of a 5 star dinner is paid by the woman since she initiated the match. The matchmaker doesn't get paid for any future dates, nor if they get engaged or married. They also offer packages of 6 matches for a slightly lower fee, with partial refund if they get married before using up all their matches.

The matchmaker does not give last names to each other, and doesn't share pictures. There is no calling or messaging each other directly before the date, it is completely blind.

Note - he isn't religious or part of any cultural group, just a regular American.

Hmm, I thought this would spark some discussion, especially regarding pictures and payment for the matchmaker. For pictures, it's interesting that they are skipping without resorting to tznius or halacha. And for payment - even if it's easier to make a match in our well connected communities, it seems like we are way off from what the world considers fair payment.

[Lurker]

it seems like we are way off from what the world considers fair payment.

This isn't exactly a fair barometer to determine what the world considers fair payment. It sounds very boutique, catering to a very select niche of the upper (or upper-middle) class. The price is likely set based on the scarcity of competitors in the market, along with the socioeconomic standing of their target demographic. Using those factors as a baseline for setting a fair market value, I don't think we're very far off, at all.

[yuneeq]

This isn't exactly a fair barometer to determine what the world considers fair payment. It sounds very boutique, catering to a very select niche of the upper (or upper-middle) class. The price is likely set based on the scarcity of competitors in the market, along with the socioeconomic standing of their target demographic. Using those factors as a baseline for setting a fair market value, I don't think we're very far off, at all.

I'm talking middle class. $10k is for the top of the line matchmakers (for wealthier individuals), but I was told $2k is the minimum. Now, I'm not expecting frum people to pay $2k for a single match, but translating the same workload into the frum market would be much more money than what the shadchanim are currently earning. If they're lucky, they get paid $2k for a successful match out of 10 tries.

I also found it interesting that they are happy to pay regardless of results, making the match is the deliverable.

ETA: You may consider it "boutique", yet I'm guessing that there are far more "matchmakers" than there are shadchanim.

[lcm]

Met@chabad premium seems to be somewhere in the middle

[CountValentine]

A gentile employee mentioned he is going on a date set up through a matchmaker. I asked him about the process and I found it pretty interesting.

In his case, the woman reached out to the matchmaker, and he was narrowed down as a candidate. The matchmaker interviewed him for an hour, ran a background check, but did not ask for any references. The woman agreed to the match, and now they're going out next week.

For setting up the match, the matchmaker earns a minimum of $2,000, or $10,000 on the higher-end. This fee, along with the bill of a 5 star dinner is paid by the woman since she initiated the match. The matchmaker doesn't get paid for any future dates, nor if they get engaged or married. They also offer packages of 6 matches for a slightly lower fee, with partial refund if they get married before using up all their matches.

The matchmaker does not give last names to each other, and doesn't share pictures. There is no calling or messaging each other directly before the date, it is completely blind.

Note - he isn't religious or part of any cultural group, just a regular American.

Someone is getting taken to the cleaners. 

[yuneeq]

Someone is getting taken to the cleaners. 

Do you know of cheaper quality matchmaking options?

https://www.realsimple.com/work-life/family/relationships/online-dating-matchmaking-worth-cost#:~:text=Consumer%20Affairs%20says%20that%20matchmaking,generate%20the%20most%20successful%20matches.

https://dirtymatchmakersecrets.com/how-much-do-matchmakers-charge/

[David61]

I'm talking middle class. $10k is for the top of the line matchmakers (for wealthier individuals), but I was told $2k is the minimum. Now, I'm not expecting frum people to pay $2k for a single match, but translating the same workload into the frum market would be much more money than what the shadchanim are currently earning. If they're lucky, they get paid $2k for a successful match out of 10 tries.

I also found it interesting that they are happy to pay regardless of results, making the match is the deliverable.

ETA: You may consider it "boutique", yet I'm guessing that there are far more "matchmakers" than there are shadchanim.

Shadchanim are successful far less than 1/10, it closer to 1/100!

See https://www.10kbatayyisroel.org/ for (imperfect but still useful statistics). They logged 240 matches, 3063 first dates, 20,893 match making suggestion

That translates to about 14% of suggestions made go out on a first date, and 8% of those that go out on a first, end up as successful matches.

They deserve more compensation, more appreciation, and more respect, then they get.

[aygart]

If these guys would throw around names like shadchanim it would be much less.

[Moshe Green]

Shadchanim are successful far less than 1/10, it closer to 1/100!

See https://www.10kbatayyisroel.org/ for (imperfect but still useful statistics). They logged 240 matches, 3063 first dates, 20,893 match making suggestion

That translates to about 14% of suggestions made go out on a first date, and 8% of those that go out on a first, end up as successful matches.

They deserve more compensation, more appreciation, and more respect, then they get.

100%
ask anyone who tried to make more than 1 or 2 matches. they almost always go through huge troubles. calling, emails, references, checking out before the suggestion etc. and usually the match does not go through. now do that x10 and realize that the shadchan can easily work 4-8 hours a day and not get a penny for a month or two.

[yuneeq]

Shadchanim are successful far less than 1/10, it closer to 1/100!

See https://www.10kbatayyisroel.org/ for (imperfect but still useful statistics). They logged 240 matches, 3063 first dates, 20,893 match making suggestion

That translates to about 14% of suggestions made go out on a first date, and 8% of those that go out on a first, end up as successful matches.

They deserve more compensation, more appreciation, and more respect, then they get.

Saying the same thing - 1/10 being successful was referring to matches getting married, you’re saying it’s 8%. But yes, regardless I think it’s a better system where the shadchan is paid for each match made, regardless of outcome. Something like 250-300 per side would mean earning $5-7k for every 10-12 matches made, instead of 2k.

Someone is getting taken to the cleaners. 

How much have you seen people pay for a reputable match maker?

[yuneeq]

If these guys would throw around names like shadchanim it would be much less.

Yet the disparity is still great to ignore.

[avromie7]

I'm talking middle class. $10k is for the top of the line matchmakers (for wealthier individuals), but I was told $2k is the minimum. Now, I'm not expecting frum people to pay $2k for a single match, but translating the same workload into the frum market would be much more money than what the shadchanim are currently earning. If they're lucky, they get paid $2k for a successful match out of 10 tries.

I also found it interesting that they are happy to pay regardless of results, making the match is the deliverable.

ETA: You may consider it "boutique", yet I'm guessing that there are far more "matchmakers" than there are shadchanim.

Shadchanim get paid more than 2k per successful match.

Shadchanim are successful far less than 1/10, it closer to 1/100!

See https://www.10kbatayyisroel.org/ for (imperfect but still useful statistics). They logged 240 matches, 3063 first dates, 20,893 match making suggestion

That translates to about 14% of suggestions made go out on a first date, and 8% of those that go out on a first, end up as successful matches.

They deserve more compensation, more appreciation, and more respect, then they get.

This matchmaker only gets paid for a first date, not just a suggestion, so comparing the number of suggestions is irrelevant. That leaves 8% successful.

You didn't factor in that not all shidduchim are created equal. A boy and girl who never went out before have a significantly higher chance of getting married than someone who's been dating for a few years. It's the "easy money" for shadchanim.