Law School

[jj1000]

Well, I'm highly impressed that you're able to drum up a commercial deal per week.  I have no idea how I'd even start attracting that type of steady work if I hung my shingle. 

Don't underestimate yourself.

[hvaces42]

Don't underestimate yourself.

Exactly. I had no clue either. Good work brings clients. I have one client that i can trace more than 75% of my referrals from.

[EJB]

if I'd be able to get my own clients id be set. Going rate in my industry is also around 3-400/hr. Some projects more.

[eliteflyer]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-push-back-at-law-firms-starting-salary-hikes-1466029554

Though bite that the objection from BofA is against the litigators. Downward pressure on fees for corporate work has not been as heavy in my experience (banking and finance). Without disclosing specifics, I think the rate I'm already billed out at is more than high enough to support the salary increase, without increasing the rate further.

[EJB]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-push-back-at-law-firms-starting-salary-hikes-1466029554

Though bite that the objection from BofA is against the litigators. Downward pressure on fees for corporate work has not been as heavy in my experience (banking and finance). Without disclosing specifics, I think the rate I'm already billed out at is more than high enough to support the salary increase, without increasing the rate further.

I don't understand this. Doesn't paying you more mean paying partners less the they would otherwise get. Do you think they want to give up on $$$ if they don't have to? Even if your billing rate supports 180, raising your pay to 180 has to come from someone's pockets.

[shiframeir]

I don't understand this. Doesn't paying you more mean paying partners less the they would otherwise get. Do you think they want to give up on $$$ if they don't have to? Even if your billing rate supports 180, raising your pay to 180 has to come from someone's pockets.

yeah, partners take a slight immediate hit and make that back as your rate increases over the year (assuming u stay busy). that BOA thing is so silly, really its just the GC pissed that it will be harder to pick up in house lawyers at 120k 3 years out of law school...

[churnbabychurn]

This whole thing is crazy. It's all based on insanly high and unjustified tuition for school.

Obviously bofa is right, that no first year staff can ever be actually worth 180k.  It's just the education cartel holding everyone hostage.

[henche]

http://www.wsj.com/articles/companies-push-back-at-law-firms-starting-salary-hikes-1466029554

Though bite that the objection from BofA is against the litigators. Downward pressure on fees for corporate work has not been as heavy in my experience (banking and finance). Without disclosing specifics, I think the rate I'm already billed out at is more than high enough to support the salary increase, without increasing the rate further.

So this fellow never wondered if Shearman & Stearling's profits per partner of $2 million is contributing to his high rates, but the 180k that this dude who owes 200k in student debt and is working all nighters on Christmas eve on his false deadlines--that's the issue.

[henche]

Obviously bofa is right, that no first year staff can ever be actually worth 180k.  It's just the education cartel holding everyone hostage.

I mean, they obviously are worth that much, no?

[churnbabychurn]

I mean, they obviously are worth that much, no?

this is a higher salary than 99% of the country.
It's artificially inflated due to the artificialy high inflated cost of education (and an artificially high barrier to entry due to high education costs).

In other words, an associate 1 is not actually adding 180k worth of real value to either his partners or his clients.

[EJB]

this is a higher salary than 99% of the country.
It's artificially inflated due to the artificialy high inflated cost of education (and an artificially high barrier to entry due to high education costs).

In other words, an associate 1 is not actually adding 180k worth of real value to either his partners or his clients.

Why not? The clients are paying much more than that. And is the cost of education that much higher than non big law associates?

[churnbabychurn]

Why not? The clients are paying much more than that. And is the cost of education that much higher than non big law associates?

Maybe. But big law is almost exclusively the most expensive education.
Non big law can pay much less to get in. Cmiiw

[Ergel]

Medical school, dental school are any cheaper?

[eliteflyer]

I don't understand this. Doesn't paying you more mean paying partners less the they would otherwise get. Do you think they want to give up on $$$ if they don't have to? Even if your billing rate supports 180, raising your pay to 180 has to come from someone's pockets.

That's true as far as it goes, but consider, that at least in the case of one firm, (i) billing rates have already increased over the course of the last decade with no corresponding increase in associate base-compensation and (ii) more importantly, average profits per partner are up from $2.3 million in 2007 to $3.3 million in 2015. Rates have already gone up, partner profits have already gone up,  it's finally time for associate compensation to go up too. Sort of analogous to the monthly once-in-9-year frequent-flyer-program-devAAluations. 

[CS1]

Medical school, dental school are any cheaper?

medical school costs more (+ more years needed); Dental school is cheaper. Less annual pay.

[henche]

this is a higher salary than 99% of the country.
It's artificially inflated due to the artificialy high inflated cost of education (and an artificially high barrier to entry due to high education costs).

In other words, an associate 1 is not actually adding 180k worth of real value to either his partners or his clients.

I'm not sure what the discussion is.  Are you trying to define an objective worth?  The fact that tens of thousands of lawyers are being paid that much by highly sophisticated employers indicates that it is a fair deal for the employers.  I agree that it's likely that if students were graduating with less debt, then the deal would shake out differently, but I don't see that as going to "worth."

I've heard that first years aren't really profitable, but I'm not sure how that goes. At say 400 an hour (lower end), you'd need to bill 487 hours that are actually paid, to hit your salary and bonus, and then let's say another 100 to pay your office secretary etc, so let's say 600 is break even.   I billed about 1500 first year--even say half were written off, they still made profit.

[hvaces42]

medical school costs more (+ more years needed); Dental school is cheaper. Less annual pay.

Higher suicide rate  Good dentists make less than lawyers??? I think not. When my kids dentist stops taking new patients 5 years out of school I doubt your statement.

[skyguy918]

Higher suicide rate  Good dentists make less than lawyers??? I think not. When my kids dentist stops taking new patients 5 years out of school I doubt your statement.

I think both you (re earlier discussion about solo) and your dentist are significant outliers.

[shiframeir]

I'm not sure what the discussion is.  Are you trying to define an objective worth?  The fact that tens of thousands of lawyers are being paid that much by highly sophisticated employers indicates that it is a fair deal for the employers.  I agree that it's likely that if students were graduating with less debt, then the deal would shake out differently, but I don't see that as going to "worth."

I've heard that first years aren't really profitable, but I'm not sure how that goes. At say 400 an hour (lower end), you'd need to bill 487 hours that are actually paid, to hit your salary and bonus, and then let's say another 100 to pay your office secretary etc, so let's say 600 is break even.   I billed about 1500 first year--even say half were written off, they still made profit.

have to factor in the availability. as a first year associate, you should make yourself available 24/7. if you planned a nice bbq with family but are the only associate on a small deal that goes crazy, you are expected to cancel and say sorry and go into the office, without a wimper. that is part of the salary, and most other professions dont come with that absolute expectation.
At least at my firm, plenty of first year associate time is written off before going on the bill to the client. except maybe wachtell and similar firms, most partners these dats want/need to have a reasonable bill where the client feels they are getting some sort of a deal. so we tell the client that the first years reviewing 400 leases for change of control provisions will come off the bill and they will only pay for the more substantive work and negotiation. this all depends on client and partner and relationship etc., but i see it regularly.
Still, even though the bills may be written off, its clear the junior has provided value (assuming they didnt screw up...).
as a first year, i think i billed about 1600+ and iirc about 400+ was written off right off the top, plus discounts for certain clients (my firm is great about showing all detail as to billing write-offs and payments by clients). considering my office, my health insurance, my shared secretary etc. and of course the promptly paid bills from clients that were happy to get a deal, my firm didnt lose anything at the bottom line on me. and that's of course also discounting the nature of a minor league system/need to obtain talent by investment. 

[CS91]

that BOA thing is so silly, really its just the GC pissed that it will be harder to pick up in house lawyers at 120k 3 years out of law school...

Or at $170k 7-8 years out of law school. Apparently that's when Marriott hires and what they pay. Can't imagine taking close to a 50% paycut to go in-house.