Law School

[David Smith]

Youre naiveté is obvious when it comes to school tuition. Its not cynical to say that a school run by private individuals is a business. They will charge what the market can bear and make accommodations (read: negotiate) when the market cannot bear the charges they demand. So asking for a break is like asking your title company to take some charges off your clients bill. The title company makes a few dollars less and that doesnt make you a bad person for negotiating.

Do the math yourself what you think it costs to run a school, what you think they're bringing in from tuition, and see if the assumed numbers should dictate the administrators becoming wealthy.

[CS91]

Do the math yourself what you think it costs to run a school, what you think they're bringing in from tuition, and see if the assumed numbers should dictate the administrators becoming wealthy.

+1

[David Smith]

I think his point was that on 300K and 4-5 kids in yeshiva, aint that comfortable anymore if living in NJ and NY and paying those house prices and commuting and Tax. Would be interesting for someone to develop a hypothetical budget...

So 300k isn't enough to support a family in NY or NJ with 5 kids in school? Is that where our community is holding? Are we ever gonna see mashiach?
(Yes, I'm aware of the costs of living, and how 75k tuition and 20k camp for 5 kids can be a lot when added to ridiculous mortgages and after taxes, but still...)

[CS1]

This is clearly the wave of the future when someone making 150K-275K (notice how they mess over 300K salaries) is not even considered to be taking a tuition break :
http://www.jkha.org/Yesodot
...

This is an awesome document, thanks. I will bring it around here. Even if we scale it down to 15% if they make $90K total, it's still a smooth way to pay the school.

The best part of this chart method is that you are not 'penalized' for having more children and/or children in other schools. Children are a bracha and our future, and often (which is the opposite of the Torah view) the high cost of tuition is given as a reason to limit the number of children born to some families.

[henche]

This is an awesome document, thanks. I will bring it around here. Even if we scale it down to 15% if they make $90K total, it's still a smooth way to pay the school.

The best part of this chart method is that you are not 'penalized' for having more children and/or children in other schools. Children are a bracha and our future, and often (which is the opposite of the Torah view) the high cost of tuition is given as a reason to limit the number of children born to some families.

It's moronic. Why would you tie it to AGI?  Why not tie it to how many baby wipes you buy at Costco?

Also, they don't properly account for you having kids in other schools.  So if you make 177 and have 4 kids in their school, then your tuition is capped at 16% which is 28k.  But if you have 3 kids in their school and one kid in another school, and even let's say you're only paying 5k to that other school (you're probably paying 10), you end up paying these guys 27k+5=32.

[Moshe123]

Biggest money saver in life?
Belong to an organized chassidus in New York and pay bupkes for a good education.

[hvaces42]

Do the math yourself what you think it costs to run a school, what you think they're bringing in from tuition, and see if the assumed numbers should dictate the administrators becoming wealthy.

One of my kids is in a school that has expanded and opened a branch in lakewood and another branch locally. So that tells me its a decent business model.

[kaman]

It's moronic. Why would you tie it to AGI?  Why not tie it to how many baby wipes you buy at Costco?

Also, they don't properly account for you having kids in other schools.  So if you make 177 and have 4 kids in their school, then your tuition is capped at 16% which is 28k.  But if you have 3 kids in their school and one kid in another school, and even let's say you're only paying 5k to that other school (you're probably paying 10), you end up paying these guys 27k+5=32.

AGI is the easiest and least intrusive way. I think people are realizing that the concept of having 75% of the school submit detailed financials is ridiculous, particularly the middle class who are working and making a respectable salary.

Also, middle class who is asking for a 25%-40% cut is a different level than someone asking for a 75%-90% break.

This is a very similar tuition model to Kushner, albeit that the two major differences are that the threshold is raised from 300K to 350K before paying full (Biglaw should like that) and also that there is no need to submit an actual document stating your agi. There is also a "suggested donation" component which can get a bit sketchy with tax deductions...:
 http://www.yeshivalabschool.org/tuition/

[David Smith]

One of my kids is in a school that has expanded and opened a branch in lakewood and another branch locally. So that tells me its a decent business model.

Either it's a good business, or they like being mechanech children, and opened the second school for the same reason they opened the first.

[henche]

AGI is the easiest and least intrusive way.

And also totally arbitrary. 

If I make 175 and contribute 18k to my 401k ,and you make the same 175 and don't contribute to 401k because you have more kids and can't afford it, then according to this you make 175 and I make only 157.

Good idea?

[CS1]

Biggest money saver in life?
Belong to an organized chassidus in New York and pay bupkes for a good education.

a "good education". !!?!? Are you sure about that? If that's the alternative, then better off being a teacher in a good school, and your children will hopefully get a good education (for less cost).

[hvaces42]

Either it's a good business, or they like being mechanech children, and opened the second school for the same reason they opened the first.

[kaman]

And also totally arbitrary. 

If I make 175 and contribute 18k to my 401k ,and you make the same 175 and don't contribute to 401k because you have more kids and can't afford it, then according to this you make 175 and I make only 157.

Good idea?

you are advocating for the traditional financial examination which goes over the top and factors in retirement accounts, home equity, cars, vacations etc.

AGI is a simple painless way, not the best way, but they best under the circumstances of making paying yeshiva tuition a comfortable process for all involved without having to submit yourself to a full financial exam to other members of the community.

[David Smith]

And also totally arbitrary. 

If I make 175 and contribute 18k to my 401k ,and you make the same 175 and don't contribute to 401k because you have more kids and can't afford it, then according to this you make 175 and I make only 157.

Good idea?

+1
What you use for poverty and tax brackets doesn't mean that it should work for tuition.

[Ephcc90]

And also totally arbitrary. 

If I make 175 and contribute 18k to my 401k ,and you make the same 175 and don't contribute to 401k because you have more kids and can't afford it, then according to this you make 175 and I make only 157.

Good idea?

It's not terrible. Other than that, there is not much to manipulate. That website says if you have schedule C or E you would need to submit them other info. That eliminates a lot of other shenanigans as well.

[kangarruu]

It's not terrible. Other than that, there is not much to manipulate. That website says if you have schedule C or E you would need to submit them other info. That eliminates a lot of other shenanigans as well.

Why not use gross?

[Ephcc90]

Why not use gross?

I wouldn't really begrudge someone who deducted alimony or student loan interest. Maybe there's a point with IRA but other than that, not much of a difference.

[henche]

I wouldn't really begrudge someone who deducted alimony or student loan interest. Maybe there's a point with IRA but other than that, not much of a difference.

Ok, so my job pays 60k, and doesn't cover health insurance. Yours pays 50k, and covers health insurance. Who is richer?

[ExGingi]

Ok, so my job pays 60k, and doesn't cover health insurance. Yours pays 50k, and covers health insurance. Who is richer?

The person who gets free "Cadillac" insurance with $0 co-pays and $0 deductible including OTC medication (aka Medicaid), totally tax-free food stamps (aka SNAP), and if they also get tax free rent subsidies, and because of all the above qualify for lower gas and electric rates, further subsidized by HEAP. Top that off with pre-school and after school vouchers (which often pay more than full tuition).

[hvaces42]

I'm gonna try and keep this pareve because of the vicious, uncalled for, PMs i received over the weekend from an individual here who hasnt even taken the bar exam. The pipe dream make it or break it mentality in this thread just amazes me. The inability to take on the ground, practical, real-life information from practicing attorneys is astonishing. 

A few of you are in big/bigger law firms. Kudos to you for winning the lottery and I hope it works out for you and you dont end up as Counsel or unemployed after year 7, 8 or 9.  Those that have offers, remember, offers can be rescinded and the market can turn very quickly with the economy. You're the first ones that get cut.

The rest are either thinking about going to, in, or just out of school. I dont care what the national average, google or any other online gobbledygoonk says your salary will be or should be. If you havent practiced a day in your life please dont opine on what a solo can or cannot make. If you havent practiced a day in your life, please dont tell other frum attorneys what they could or should be doing. If youve done your research and think a certain path is for you, great, take it. Dont judge other people for the paths they've taken.

The egos are just impossible. You dont know everything because you graduated out of a top whatever school and have a job at a top whatever firm. You got lucky. Thank Hashem and dont sit in judgment of others who were not as fortunate or have had other experiences than you.

I'm sorry for the rant but it had to be said. If you cant get along with people here or take constructive criticism here G-d knows what you will end up like working wherever you end up.