Law School

[shiframeir]

I feel that smart NY recruiters know what the yarlmuke entails, a guarantee of less availability and more special attention (food/timing of events etc.), and thats just a nice simple reason to move on to the so many other capable candidates (kinda like only hiring from the top 14, cut out yarlmulkes). I dont think that's even actionable discrimination, considering that availability probably should be a BFOQ at most positions in Biglaw (maybe not TE work).

[AJK]

I personally wear a yarmulke, am at a big NY law firm, and can tell you that yes, it means all those things (less availability, food requirements, etc), but it also means a guaranteed hard worker (to make up for the lost time, I come in Sundays, etc), a person who has dealt with not one curriculum for his entire life, but two (twice as much as most other candidates), and though not without exception: an honest person with integrity, a character trait that may or may not be inculcated as much if I were not a religious Jew*; etc.

I think recruiters know that, and I think that in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance.

*I am, of course, not saying people who are not religious Jews cannot be honest, please don't interpret it that way.

[shiframeir]

Ha, i hear u AJK, but i dont think we have that stellar reputation everywhere, i know at least a few frum peeps who tried to game the system and work as little as possible, and prejudice is very easy.

[churnbabychurn]

Ha, i hear u AJK, but i dont think we have that stellar reputation everywhere, i know at least a few frum peeps who tried to game the system and work as little as possible, and prejudice is very easy.

at least you seem to be affected.

[YankyDoodle]

I personally wear a yarmulke, am at a big NY law firm, and can tell you that yes, it means all those things (less availability, food requirements, etc), but it also means a guaranteed hard worker (to make up for the lost time, I come in Sundays, etc), a person who has dealt with not one curriculum for his entire life, but two (twice as much as most other candidates), and though not without exception: an honest person with integrity, a character trait that may or may not be inculcated as much if I were not a religious Jew*; etc.

I think recruiters know that, and I think that in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance.

*I am, of course, not saying people who are not religious Jews cannot be honest, please don't interpret it that way.

Thanks for sharing your experience...
Only half joking, is the bolded quote above seen as a virtue in law?

[henche]

Thanks for sharing your experience...
Only half joking, is the bolded quote above seen as a virtue in law?

Yes, we're trusted with information worth millions on a daily basis. And biglaw practice is not my cousiin vinny practice; the amounts we deal with are too large to risk on shenanigans. I've only seen real honesty

[Menachem613]

Yes, we're trusted with information worth millions on a daily basis. And biglaw practice is not my cousiin vinny practice; the amounts we deal with are too large to risk on shenanigans. I've only seen real honesty

+1

[churnbabychurn]

Lawyer have a reputation for integrity and honesty. NOT!

 

[henche]

Lawyer have a reputation for integrity and honesty. NOT!

 

Sure. Lawyers also have a reputatuion for going to court and defending criminals. Maybe like 5  people in my firm do that. Most of us don't go to court at all. Most of us spend most of our time either drafting or reviewing 100+ page contracts.

So you see the public perception of lawyers is about as accurate as the public perception of how easy it is to get a legal job...

[jj1000]

Sure. Lawyers also have a reputatuion for going to court and defending criminals. Maybe like 5  people in my firm do that. Most of us don't go to court at all. Most of us spend most of our time either drafting or reviewing 100+ page contracts.

So you see the public perception of lawyers is about as accurate as the public perception of how easy it is to get a legal job...

I recently helped a friend of mine get $200,000 back which was stolen from him, with the council of a lawyer.

He told me he always thought lawyers don't have a purpose, until now. And that pretty much sums up society's view on lawyers, hate them until they save your @ss. And when you are charged for a crime you didn't do those crim defense lawyers aren't too bad either.

[henche]

 And when you are charged for a crime you didn't do those crim defense lawyers aren't too bad either.

Yeah, but not as awesome as they are when you're charged with a crime you DID do.

[Menachem613]

People are quick to blame lawyers but not the people who hired them.

[jj1000]

Yeah, but not as awesome as they are when you're charged with a crime you DID do.

lol *eye roll*

[Hirshthg]

Sorry for the long post   

Top 5 sounds about right. I know Penn more than other schools and a majority of the class is earning160K first year out.

Don’t know what u mean by top schools, but after the top 5, no "majority of the class" is making 160k/getting NY biglaw.

@Hirshthg 80 what don't find a job?

And the judiciary is also talking about making law school 2 years. Well at least justice Kennedy was last I spoke with him

To the above comments and some others:
1. According to an article in the New York State Bar Association (September addition) there are a number of law schools who have been sued and lost for misrepresenting their alumni's job rates. In addition to those which have won there have been a larger number of law suits brought against other schools, which did not succeed, many of which on grounds of technicalities.  Therefore for this conversation's sake, I propose that there is a difference of opinion when it comes to these numbers: P.

2. According to the above article which took the most recent data from the top 20 law schools in the country and showed the states for each school; less than 10 percent of graduating lawyers end up finding a law job with $65K+ within the first 9 months of leaving law school, and less than 20 percent find a law job with $35k+ within the first 9 months of leaving law school. This would seem at odds to the opinions listed above.

3. While a small number of top students in top schools do land $100k+ jobs there are a good number of people who graduate top in top schools and do not land a high paying legal position. You still need to calculate the value of your risk putting that $150k into an industry which as a decent probability of never being able to pay you back.

4. Justice Kennedy is a politician and he needs to say what he needs to say, however he still needs to do what he needs to do, which is to keep the hundreds of thousands of licensed lawyers who doesn't have a clue as to what they are doing out of the courtrooms.

5. To all of you legal reputation commentators: first of all in light of the above you may see who a fellow who owes more than he will ever make back in a salary will take a chance at a shady hand... Second people hate lawyers because they dislike people who talk another language which they can't understand. Third lawyers are subject to stricter personal obligations and ethics that (almost) any other industry, therefore hearing that an attorney's conduct is held "unethical" is hardly the same standard as anyone else's. Forth about the criminal justice system, if you had any experience or understanding at the corruption and injustice of the prosecution system you would not be so quick to condemn a lawyer for representing a "criminal" aka alleged crime.

[jj1000]

Sorry for the long post   
To the above comments and some others:
1. According to an article in the New York State Bar Association (September addition) there are a number of law schools who have been sued and lost for misrepresenting their alumni's job rates. In addition to those which have won there have been a larger number of law suits brought against other schools, which did not succeed, many of which on grounds of technicalities.  Therefore for this conversation's sake, I propose that there is a difference of opinion when it comes to these numbers: P.

2. According to the above article which took the most recent data from the top 20 law schools in the country and showed the states for each school; less than 10 percent of graduating lawyers end up finding a law job with $65K+ within the first 9 months of leaving law school, and less than 20 percent find a law job with $35k+ within the first 9 months of leaving law school. This would seem at odds to the opinions listed above.

3. While a small number of top students in top schools do land $100k+ jobs there are a good number of people who graduate top in top schools and do not land a high paying legal position. You still need to calculate the value of your risk putting that $150k into an industry which as a decent probability of never being able to pay you back.

4. Justice Kennedy is a politician and he needs to say what he needs to say, however he still needs to do what he needs to do, which is to keep the hundreds of thousands of licensed lawyers who doesn't have a clue as to what they are doing out of the courtrooms.

5. To all of you legal reputation commentators: first of all in light of the above you may see who a fellow who owes more than he will ever make back in a salary will take a chance at a shady hand... Second people hate lawyers because they dislike people who talk another language which they can't understand. Third lawyers are subject to stricter personal obligations and ethics that (almost) any other industry, therefore hearing that an attorney's conduct is held "unethical" is hardly the same standard as anyone else's. Forth about the criminal justice system, if you had any experience or understanding at the corruption and injustice of the prosecution system you would not be so quick to condemn a lawyer for representing a "criminal" aka alleged crime.

1. Which schools were sued, afaik all of them were thrown out of court. And link?
2. link?
3. That's what everyone here was saying.
4. Supreme court justices don't have to play politician they have that job for life.

[Dave321]

HMMMMM wondering who would be dumb enough to sue a school full of lawyers. (Not in terms of winning or losing, but they can drag out a case for a decade.)

and +1 on SCOTUS. Supreme Court Justices are positions for life. That way they can make decisions without fear of losing their job.

[AJK]

I also thought all cases were chucked in response to the schools motion to dismiss.

[Frostboot]

Most of us spend most of our time either drafting or reviewing 100+ page contracts.

Many of which had a big part in causing the financial crisis. Just saying…

[jj1000]

Many of which had a big part in causing the financial crisis. Just saying…

Many of which built modern day economics into what it is today and without, capitalism never would have succeeded.

[Frostboot]

I think recruiters know that, and I think that in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance.

I am sorry but I think that is a big misconception. Who really knows (recruiters/screeners/partners would never admit it) but I have never met a frum partner who agreed with that statement. I have done extensive research on the Yarmulka question and have consistently been told that it will definitely hurt you. How much? That depends on which market you are in (NY<DC<Pittsburgh) school you are in (HLS<GW<BLS) and your grades.

There is always that "one guy" who got the job because of his Yarmulka (I suppose he doesn't really exist) but I think it is fair to say that you get the job despite your Yarmulka.