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Law school exams for yeshiva guys 101, by henche
1. Read the story. 
2. Write down all the taynas that anyone might have, and what taynas the other guy might have back, and what the halacha probably is. 
3. Hit "submit"
4. Get a job.
5. Never see your family again!!!!!!!

http://www.top-law-schools.com/success-in-law-school.html
« Last edited by jj1000 on September 15, 2016, 08:19:54 AM »

Author Topic: Law School  (Read 232744 times)

Offline 16guitar

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2160 on: May 08, 2019, 01:51:49 AM »
Due to the high praises on this thread regarding Fisch's course, I most likely will sign up.
I have some questions for those that took the course.

How much time (if any) did you continue studying after the course before taking the lsat?

Is there any area I can start preparing for now (his next course is a month away and I have free time), or will I have to throw away all previous knowledge when taking his course?

Any other suggestions/recommendations would be greatly appreciated :)

Offline Thingywingy

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2161 on: July 10, 2019, 07:23:57 PM »
How much is worth paying to go to Fordham over Cardozo (assuming Cardozo offers full)?
I am sometimes accused of overthinking things. I am still mulling over whether that accusation has merit.

Offline blerbz

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2162 on: July 10, 2019, 08:48:20 PM »
How much is worth paying to go to Fordham over Cardozo (assuming Cardozo offers full)?
Back in the day Cardozo full meant you must keep a B+ average and allegedly they didn't randomly spread these students among the sections essentially stacking the odds against them.

Offline am7734

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2163 on: July 10, 2019, 09:02:36 PM »
Back in the day Cardozo full meant you must keep a B+ average and allegedly they didn't randomly spread these students among the sections essentially stacking the odds against them.
More like a b- average and not applicable anymore afaik

Offline blerbz

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2164 on: July 10, 2019, 09:21:28 PM »
How much is worth paying to go to Fordham over Cardozo (assuming Cardozo offers full)?
You can also go back to Fordham and explain what Cardozo is offering and see if they will offer anything to make the decision easier for you


Offline Thingywingy

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2165 on: July 11, 2019, 12:38:30 AM »
You can also go back to Fordham and explain what Cardozo is offering and see if they will offer anything to make the decision easier for you
Did that already. Still a sizable difference in cost. Is there a site where you can easily compare job prospects between schools? Also, is Fordham advantageous over Cardoza for government jobs as well? or primarily for "big law".
I am sometimes accused of overthinking things. I am still mulling over whether that accusation has merit.

Offline gubevo18

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2166 on: July 12, 2019, 11:05:02 AM »
Did that already. Still a sizable difference in cost. Is there a site where you can easily compare job prospects between schools? Also, is Fordham advantageous over Cardoza for government jobs as well? or primarily for "big law".
generally the metric is big law + federal clerkship numbers. That's how you see the school's employment outcome. Google aba 509 employment for each school and you can see hard numbers.

Offline Thingywingy

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2167 on: July 14, 2019, 06:28:56 PM »
generally the metric is big law + federal clerkship numbers. That's how you see the school's employment outcome. Google aba 509 employment for each school and you can see hard numbers.
How many employees is considered big law?
500+: Fordham 39% - Cardozo 14%
251-500: Fordham 8% - Cardozo 2%
100-250: Fordham 2% - Cardozo 4%
Federal Clerkships: Fordham 7/371 - Cardozo 1/272
« Last Edit: July 14, 2019, 06:50:39 PM by Thingywingy »
I am sometimes accused of overthinking things. I am still mulling over whether that accusation has merit.

Offline henche

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2168 on: July 15, 2019, 12:42:25 PM »
How many employees is considered big law?
500+: Fordham 39% - Cardozo 14%
251-500: Fordham 8% - Cardozo 2%
100-250: Fordham 2% - Cardozo 4%
Federal Clerkships: Fordham 7/371 - Cardozo 1/272

tbh, a 39% shot at biglaw isn't a great bet for taking on 200k of debt.

Online shiframeir

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2169 on: July 15, 2019, 03:30:30 PM »
tbh, a 39% shot at biglaw isn't a great bet for taking on 200k of debt.
plus living expenses/no earnings for 3 years...

Offline Thingywingy

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2170 on: July 15, 2019, 07:22:57 PM »
tbh, a 39% shot at biglaw isn't a great bet for taking on 200k of debt.
i understand that. The question is how big of a scholarship makes it reasonable.
I am sometimes accused of overthinking things. I am still mulling over whether that accusation has merit.

Offline Cls2020

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2171 on: July 21, 2019, 09:29:50 AM »
i understand that. The question is how big of a scholarship makes it reasonable.
There is no accepted debt-to-risk ratio that makes it reasonable. It depends on your own risk tolerance.

Offline David61

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2172 on: July 21, 2019, 02:38:02 PM »
plus living expenses/no earnings for 3 years...

The three years of living expenses and no earnings is not part of the trade-off equation. Both options require that. (As do most forms of higher education).

Another way to think about the tradeoff is to estimate the annual costs to repay the incremental loans for tuition (e.g. $X K/year for 20 years), and figure if that is worth it.

Also, it's not just about the money. What about the satisfaction with the intensity of the program, influence of network which can help with future moves, options to choose the area of specialization, and prestige.

Online shiframeir

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2173 on: July 21, 2019, 11:17:01 PM »
The three years of living expenses and no earnings is not part of the trade-off equation. Both options require that. (As do most forms of higher education).
my point is the other option is taking an entry level job at a business, and not going to law school if your other option is an alleged 39% chance at biglaw (but for yarmulke jews, i bet much closer to 20%) for $200K and 3 years of life

Offline michael

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2174 on: July 21, 2019, 11:31:00 PM »
Many firms in the 251-500 lawyer range pay market salaries. So the chance of getting a biglaw salary should be higher than 39%. Also keep in mind that not everyone in law school wants biglaw (government, public interest...), and those students are not taken out of the total number. So a student going in that wants biglaw, at Fordham, for example, has better than 39% odds. 

Offline gubevo18

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2175 on: July 22, 2019, 09:57:34 AM »
Many firms in the 251-500 lawyer range pay market salaries. So the chance of getting a biglaw salary should be higher than 39%. Also keep in mind that not everyone in law school wants biglaw (government, public interest...), and those students are not taken out of the total number. So a student going in that wants biglaw, at Fordham, for example, has better than 39% odds.
as far as numbers are concerned 251 is already big law. Either way as was mentioned above yarmulke goers will have to be in the top 20%. I personally know of two people in the top third who did not get big law. And one in the top 15-20 who got during 3L. By no means is it an easy ride

Offline David61

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2176 on: July 22, 2019, 10:56:30 AM »
There is no accepted debt-to-risk ratio that makes it reasonable. It depends on your own risk tolerance.

Yep. Like they say with investing "you can either eat well or sleep well!"

The discipline of behavioral finance suggests that the measure of risk is both personal (emotional tolerance for risk) and dependent on personal wealth. For example, while investing 200K for a 50/50 chance of immediately getting 600K in return, is statistically a good bet to take  (with an "expected" payoff of $300K).  However a person with a lot of assets can afford to make the investment/bet (and perhaps "should"), but the person with few assets can't (if it may cost them their house, relationships, family harmony, the peace of mind) and probably should not.

Also, the discipline of economics suggests that the marginal utility (pleasure) of incremental assets decline. (i.e. the improvement in quality of life of having a 6-bedroom home vs. a 5 bedroom home, is much smaller than the difference between having a 1 bedroom and 2 bedroom home). The same is true of income, the incremental pleasure derived from making $250K vs $150K, is relatively modest compared to the incremental pleasure derived from making $150K vs. $50K. Point being the "financial/mathematics return" may overstate the "utility of that return", when doing a cost vs. benefit analysis.


Offline henche

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2177 on: July 22, 2019, 12:55:43 PM »

Also, the discipline of economics suggests that the marginal utility (pleasure) of incremental assets decline. (i.e. the improvement in quality of life of having a 6-bedroom home vs. a 5 bedroom home, is much smaller than the difference between having a 1 bedroom and 2 bedroom home). The same is true of income, the incremental pleasure derived from making $250K vs $150K, is relatively modest compared to the incremental pleasure derived from making $150K vs. $50K. Point being the "financial/mathematics return" may overstate the "utility of that return", when doing a cost vs. benefit analysis.

I don't believe this one. It's obvious that the curve is neither a straight horizontal line nor a straight sloping line. But it's not at all obvious where it curves. 

Offline David61

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2178 on: July 22, 2019, 01:06:02 PM »
You are correct. It's not linear its curved, (curving along the whole line, i.e. slope keeps changing). As always economic models are understood to be simplifications of a world that is more complex.

You can Google "law of diminishing marginal utility" for more info.

Offline henche

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2179 on: July 22, 2019, 04:00:06 PM »
You are correct. It's not linear its curved, (curving along the whole line, i.e. slope keeps changing). As always economic models are understood to be simplifications of a world that is more complex.

You can Google "law of diminishing marginal utility" for more info.

Yes, this is the underpinning of all tax academia, that redistributing wealth is economically beneficial because of the declining marginal utility of money.