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Law school exams for yeshiva guys 101, by henche
1. Read the story. 
2. Write down all the taynas that anyone might have, and what taynas the other guy might have back, and what the halacha probably is. 
3. Hit "submit"
4. Get a job.
5. Never see your family again!!!!!!!

http://www.top-law-schools.com/success-in-law-school.html
« Last edited by jj1000 on September 15, 2016, 08:19:54 AM »

Author Topic: Law School  (Read 202207 times)

Online kangarruu

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2205 on: May 13, 2020, 07:38:11 AM »
Firstly thanks for taking the time!

Right so big law based on the requirements (top school, hours etc) is completely off my radar. The question is if it's worth leaving an ok living to go to school for 3-4 years for a non big law, law job.

Reading cases - Ya lol I was simply referring to that I seem to enjoy reading through the law and seeing how it's applied etc. Not that it's what you do most of the time, just an overall interest I would think.

I think you know my feelings on this already, but government work can be really great. There are plenty of government jobs that pay between $100k - $200k with fantastic benefits and work-life balance (and it's safe in a recession). And at least in the NY/NJ area they're mostly filled with mid-level graduates from mid-level schools. And there are a ton of different directions to go because the government does everything.

That said, I don't think law as a career is worth the 10+ year investment you need for school and climbing the ladder (or for Biglaw, the stress and hours). There are plenty of careers that pay the same or better without it.

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2206 on: May 13, 2020, 07:45:27 AM »
I think you know my feelings on this already, but government work can be really great. There are plenty of government jobs that pay between $100k - $200k with fantastic benefits and work-life balance (and it's safe in a recession). And at least in the NY/NJ area they're mostly filled with mid-level graduates from mid-level schools. And there are a ton of different directions to go because the government does everything.

That said, I don't think law as a career is worth the 10+ year investment you need for school and climbing the ladder (or for Biglaw, the stress and hours). There are plenty of careers that pay the same or better without it.
;D

Though most Jewish guys do their bachelor's in 6-9 months :P


Thanks for the perspective!
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2207 on: May 13, 2020, 09:36:07 AM »
;D

Though most Jewish guys do their bachelor's in 6-9 months :P


Thanks for the perspective!
Meaning a total of 5~ years of school. A government job would actually seem like a decent safe option especially in today's times...
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


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Offline shiframeir

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2208 on: May 13, 2020, 03:30:06 PM »
I think you know my feelings on this already, but government work can be really great. There are plenty of government jobs that pay between $100k - $200k with fantastic benefits and work-life balance (and it's safe in a recession). And at least in the NY/NJ area they're mostly filled with mid-level graduates from mid-level schools. And there are a ton of different directions to go because the government does everything.

That said, I don't think law as a career is worth the 10+ year investment you need for school and climbing the ladder (or for Biglaw, the stress and hours). There are plenty of careers that pay the same or better without it.
i'm surprised about your numbers and implied ease of getting govt jobs. i'm a partner in biglaw from a top 4 school but found it really hard to even get interviews at ny govt legal jobs without "knowing" someone (had friends who got these jobs with connections) and usually they start below 70K (albeit with great benefits).

@Yehuda25 what level of comp are you looking for that u decided biglaw isnt a consideration? obviously as noted by @kangarruu you should think deeply about your options, and consider the time invested in law school (3 years plus the amount u could have made at a job u could have gotten now) vs your chances at getting whatever govt or other dream job u are looking for (as @reed noted, if it is private non-biglaw, note it will usually involve lots more hussle for clients etc. which is its own negative vs billing 80 hours).

I happen to also be a corp lawyer, andi still love reading cases (and statutes) when i have the time. It is useful in my Corp/M&A practice, though not usually billable. if you liked learning shas (or a Ktzoys!), you will probably also enjoy legal reasoning, but as a corporate lawyer, generally you spend more time coming up with reasonings for why your client should be entitled to certain protections in a contract, or why this language should be used instead of that language (kind of like reverse engineering how you would write a mishna).

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2209 on: May 13, 2020, 03:35:44 PM »
i'm surprised about your numbers and implied ease of getting govt jobs. i'm a partner in biglaw from a top 4 school but found it really hard to even get interviews at ny govt legal jobs without "knowing" someone (had friends who got these jobs with connections) and usually they start below 70K (albeit with great benefits).

@Yehuda25 what level of comp are you looking for that u decided biglaw isnt a consideration? obviously as noted by @kangarruu you should think deeply about your options, and consider the time invested in law school (3 years plus the amount u could have made at a job u could have gotten now) vs your chances at getting whatever govt or other dream job u are looking for (as @reed noted, if it is private non-biglaw, note it will usually involve lots more hussle for clients etc. which is its own negative vs billing 80 hours).

I happen to also be a corp lawyer, andi still love reading cases (and statutes) when i have the time. It is useful in my Corp/M&A practice, though not usually billable. if you liked learning shas (or a Ktzoys!), you will probably also enjoy legal reasoning, but as a corporate lawyer, generally you spend more time coming up with reasonings for why your client should be entitled to certain protections in a contract, or why this language should be used instead of that language (kind of like reverse engineering how you would write a mishna).
Thanks for your detailed response! I'm assuming big law isn't for me as my wife works as a full time nurse, & B"h already have little ones at home... The few people that I used to be associated with that do big law seem to say that they are required to do at least 80 hours a week etc.... that with the fact that I really would be going into the lsat just trying to get the biggest scholarship I can to a local (NYC tristate area) school...
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2210 on: May 13, 2020, 08:19:06 PM »
i'm surprised about your numbers and implied ease of getting govt jobs. i'm a partner in biglaw from a top 4 school but found it really hard to even get interviews at ny govt legal jobs without "knowing" someone (had friends who got these jobs with connections) and usually they start below 70K (albeit with great benefits).

Re the ease of getting government jobs, I think a lot of it depends on applying to lower-profile agencies. Everyone wants to go to the NYC Law Department or the AG's office, and those are really hard to get, but I spent years working at a regular NYC agency that staffs about 200 attorneys and we had to beg people to come work for us. The work is not as flashy, sure (I doubt many people go to law school dreaming of evaluating supplemental needs trusts or prosecuting taxi drivers) but once you're in the system it's easier to move around. Even now with the hiring freeze there are about 30 active attorney postings.

Offline michael

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2211 on: May 13, 2020, 08:22:41 PM »
I went to law school when I already had kids and I'm now a senior associate at a smaller biglaw firm that pays market salary/bonus. Never had to work more than 60 hours per week.

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2212 on: May 13, 2020, 08:34:48 PM »
Re the ease of getting government jobs, I think a lot of it depends on applying to lower-profile agencies. Everyone wants to go to the NYC Law Department or the AG's office, and those are really hard to get, but I spent years working at a regular NYC agency that staffs about 200 attorneys and we had to beg people to come work for us. The work is not as flashy, sure (I doubt many people go to law school dreaming of evaluating supplemental needs trusts or prosecuting taxi drivers) but once you're in the system it's easier to move around. Even now with the hiring freeze there are about 30 active attorney postings.
Very smart. Like jobs in hospitals getting internal hires etc.
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2213 on: May 13, 2020, 08:46:31 PM »
I went to law school when I already had kids and I'm now a senior associate at a smaller biglaw firm that pays market salary/bonus. Never had to work more than 60 hours per week.
Amazing!

If you don't mind me asking...

How did you get to a big law job? Top tier school? Also, 60 hours isn't a walk in the park, but it seems like from the people ive heard of that do more... Are you the rule or the exception?
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

Offline michael

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2214 on: May 13, 2020, 08:50:18 PM »
Amazing!

If you don't mind me asking...

How did you get to a big law job? Top tier school? Also, 60 hours isn't a walk in the park, but it seems like from the people ive heard of that do more... Are you the rule or the exception?

I went to Penn and did fairly well. I average 40 billable and maybe another 10 non-billable per week. Most folks at my firm are the same. Not a top firm, so exit options are not the same as the larger biglaw firms. Tradeoff for a better lifestyle.

Offline smb2270

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2215 on: May 13, 2020, 09:12:57 PM »
;D

Though most Jewish guys do their bachelor's in 6-9 months :P


Thanks for the perspective!
3L at NYU here going onto biglaw.  Taking finals, but am more than happy to help. 

It is great that you don't have your sights set on biglaw, because the hours can be brutal, and it is possible to do better in other fields.

To get a full scholarship, consider your GPA in addition to a decent LSAT score, but other factors are also important. 

Full scholarships come down to a lot more than just numbers.  Consider if you will be eligible for need-based aid.  Consider getting letter from clergy/rabbonim that certify your dire financial situation if you're above a certain $ threshold to qualify.  Any other mitigating circumstances?  Large medical expenses, tuition, etc.?  Mention this to the financial aid office, and you might be eligible for more $.  Need based eligibility will allow you to apply for free (almost!) to lots of laws schools, which will allow you to negotiate between them for that scholarship you want. 

Getting into law school may be as much of a hustle as getting a job after law school, but it's all worth it if that's what you want.  Grades will matter for a job, but you won't have to do amazing in school to get anywhere assuming you can network and "hustle" for meetings with attorneys in-house, gov't, compliance departments at hedge funds, and public interest.  Ask yourself, honestly, if you are ready and able to do this.  Are you polished and worldly enough?

NYC legal departments have many honors programs (to name one: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/law/careers/summer-honors-program-frequently-asked-questions.page) that can turn into job offers (or even biglaw) after two years. 


Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2216 on: May 13, 2020, 09:31:32 PM »
I went to Penn and did fairly well. I average 40 billable and maybe another 10 non-billable per week. Most folks at my firm are the same. Not a top firm, so exit options are not the same as the larger biglaw firms. Tradeoff for a better lifestyle.
Awesome, thanks for the info!
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

Offline Yehuda25

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2217 on: May 13, 2020, 09:34:32 PM »
3L at NYU here going onto biglaw.  Taking finals, but am more than happy to help. 

It is great that you don't have your sights set on biglaw, because the hours can be brutal, and it is possible to do better in other fields.

To get a full scholarship, consider your GPA in addition to a decent LSAT score, but other factors are also important. 

Full scholarships come down to a lot more than just numbers.  Consider if you will be eligible for need-based aid.  Consider getting letter from clergy/rabbonim that certify your dire financial situation if you're above a certain $ threshold to qualify.  Any other mitigating circumstances?  Large medical expenses, tuition, etc.?  Mention this to the financial aid office, and you might be eligible for more $.  Need based eligibility will allow you to apply for free (almost!) to lots of laws schools, which will allow you to negotiate between them for that scholarship you want. 

Getting into law school may be as much of a hustle as getting a job after law school, but it's all worth it if that's what you want.  Grades will matter for a job, but you won't have to do amazing in school to get anywhere assuming you can network and "hustle" for meetings with attorneys in-house, gov't, compliance departments at hedge funds, and public interest.  Ask yourself, honestly, if you are ready and able to do this.  Are you polished and worldly enough?

NYC legal departments have many honors programs (to name one: https://www1.nyc.gov/site/law/careers/summer-honors-program-frequently-asked-questions.page) that can turn into job offers (or even biglaw) after two years.
During finals wow, i'm truly honored  ;D ;D ;D

GPA  - ya thanks.

Need based-  Thank god not an issue.


On the jobs - I think I have a shot at that, first need to figure out if this is the career path I want:) Before I pull the trigger on it. But once Im in im all in :P
“To avoid criticism say nothing, do nothing, be nothing.”


― Aristotle

Offline henche

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2218 on: May 14, 2020, 12:53:25 AM »
I went to Penn and did fairly well. I average 40 billable and maybe another 10 non-billable per week. Most folks at my firm are the same. Not a top firm, so exit options are not the same as the larger biglaw firms. Tradeoff for a better lifestyle.

I mean, that annualizes to 1900 billable plus 500 nonbillable.

Offline michael

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Re: Law School
« Reply #2219 on: May 14, 2020, 11:06:15 AM »
I mean, that annualizes to 1900 billable plus 500 nonbillable.
Was rounding off. Also, did not mean non-billable legal time. Was referring to an all-inclusive “work” time which includes non-billable legal time but also includes lunches, time entry, social time etc. So around 1900 billable, 150 or so of client development, publications and the like, and another 250 of what is really wasted time.