Law School

[thaber]

Love how  OP started a firestorm, his first post ever, and disappeared. I sense a fake

[Aj3042]

Love how  OP started a firestorm, his first post ever, and disappeared. I sense a fake

Nah I'm sure he's just busy studying...

[henche]

A separate discussion but it's actually common practice among frum lawyers, especially partners, and it's not without a good basis (though I'm not saying yes or no, just pouring out it has its merits).

There is definitely a divide between biglaw partners and associates on this, but I attribute that to their age and when they entered the firms. 

[michael]

There is definitely a divide between biglaw partners and associates on this, but I attribute that to their age and when they entered the firms.

Agreed. Though I find that many associates still remove their yarmulkas.

[Freddie]

Agreed. Though I find that many associates still remove their yarmulkas.

Just think.. if someone has a full beard, then he doesn't accomplish much by taking off his yarmulka. Hmmm.

[CS91]

Just think.. if someone has a full beard, then he doesn't accomplish much by taking off his yarmulka. Hmmm.

So you're saying that most big law associates have beards? 

[Aj3042]

Just think.. if someone has a full beard, then he doesn't accomplish much by taking off his yarmulka. Hmmm.

As he points out-

So you're saying that most big law associates have beards? 

It's hard to judge these people when you're not in their shoes. Many very very frum lawyers do this so there has to be something to it, whether you agree with it completely or not.

[Aaaron]

Let's just assume that each individual has asked his respective LOR/Mashgiach and is doing what he's told, regardless of whether you agree with it.

[avromie7]

If you arent getting into columbia/NYU, and you plan on wearing a yarmulke to interviews/your job, i recommend not going to any law school without a huge scholarship; the odds are heavily against you making your investment (plus loss of 3 years work oppty) back. Unless your family is rich and you want to waste their money to make people think you are smart (or foolish).

you must have had a really tough childhood

[avromie7]

It's indoors, they feel it's necessary for parnassah (definitely can't make a brachah/eat or drink though). IIRC there's a tshuva from Rav Moshe about it.

Eating/drinking do not require a yarmulka only the bracha does

[AsherO]

You can argue that all parnassa is from hashem, but then Talent/motivation are irrelevant, and it the question is only if taking off Yramulka is permitted and required for hishtadlus.

I can't see how removing your Yarmulkah is part of required hishtadlus...

[Aj3042]

Let's just assume that each individual has asked his respective LOR/Mashgiach and is doing what he's told, regardless of whether you agree with it.

Let's not assume people are robots and just "do everything they're told". Let's assume people actually think for themselves a little bit too. Shulchan aruch wasn't written just for rabbonim, people with intelligence can understand a bit too. It's not like these sources are obscure and/or very complex. It's pretty straight forward stuff.

[Aj3042]

Eating/drinking do not require a yarmulka only the bracha does

Correct but one follows the other.

[avromie7]

Correct but one follows the other.

true but it's much simpler to cover your head for a few seconds to make a bracha than to cover it while eating (we used to do it at pool party/bbq where one guy would cover the others head so he can make a bracha)

[Aj3042]

true but it's much simpler to cover your head for a few seconds to make a bracha than to cover it while eating (we used to do it at pool party/bbq where one guy would cover the others head so he can make a bracha)

Ha I hear.

[shiframeir]

you must have had a really tough childhood

ha, actually had an awesome childhood BH
and i happen to always wear my yarmulke, and wore it on every interview. its pretty common knowledge (and i've spoken to my partners about it) that when interviewing for Biglaw having a yarmulke is generally a disadvantage, and we all know people who took some interviews with and without and found ridiculous differences in callbacks/offers. as a warning, i know someone who didnt wear in any interview and then wore on the first day to work, and he got screamed at by a couple of partners (and i think thats kinda fair, and perhaps geneivas da'as, but i understand the duress of all those loans forcing people to do what they need to do for a job).

My point isnt the yarmulke, its the investment. i dont understand why spending 150-200K for three years of hard work at a school below NYU (where as a yarmulke wearer you still only have about a 75% shot at a biglaw job if median grades, which isnt so easy btw) is worth it, when you can probably become an accountant or get another normal $40K job and gain experience and if u work as hard as u would in law school, perhaps end up much better, without all that debt.
seems like a stupid wager, and recipe for a really tough adulthood  .

Freddie, dont know who u are, but u obviously have done a lot on these forums so i dont mean to upset u. but i'm just saying how i see it based on all the people i have seen go through law school (and some who i have interviewed).
PlatinumGuy, u are the man. 

[AsherO]

Freddie, dont know who u are, but u obviously have done a lot on these forums so i dont mean to upset u. but i'm just saying how i see it based on all the people i have seen go through law school (and some who i have interviewed).
PlatinumGuy, u are the man. 

Non sequitur?

[Aaaron]

ha, actually had an awesome childhood BH
and i happen to always wear my yarmulke, and wore it on every interview. its pretty common knowledge (and i've spoken to my partners about it) that when interviewing for Biglaw having a yarmulke is generally a disadvantage, and we all know people who took some interviews with and without and found ridiculous differences in callbacks/offers. as a warning, i know someone who didnt wear in any interview and then wore on the first day to work, and he got screamed at by a couple of partners (and i think thats kinda fair, and perhaps geneivas da'as, but i understand the duress of all those loans forcing people to do what they need to do for a job).

My point isnt the yarmulke, its the investment. i dont understand why spending 150-200K for three years of hard work at a school below NYU (where as a yarmulke wearer you still only have about a 75% shot at a biglaw job if median grades, which isnt so easy btw) is worth it, when you can probably become an accountant or get another normal $40K job and gain experience and if u work as hard as u would in law school, perhaps end up much better, without all that debt.
seems like a stupid wager, and recipe for a really tough adulthood  .

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've read.  Why are you only focusing on biglaw?  The market has bounced back over the past few years and it's not difficult to find a decent job with decent grades and a good personality.  Networking is almost as important as grades.

[Aaaron]

Let's not assume people are robots and just "do everything they're told". Let's assume people actually think for themselves a little bit too. Shulchan aruch wasn't written just for rabbonim, people with intelligence can understand a bit too. It's not like these sources are obscure and/or very complex. It's pretty straight forward stuff.

I don't think you see the irony in your post.

[CS91]

That is one of the most ridiculous things I've read.  Why are you only focusing on biglaw?  The market has bounced back over the past few years and it's not difficult to find a decent job with decent grades and a good personality.  Networking is almost as important as grades.

The market has bounced back compared to how it was in '08 and '09. But to say that "it's not difficult to find a decent job without decent grades" is super inaccurate. I know people at T-14 schools with middle of the pack grades who don't have jobs. As for networking, a good connection can get you a callback, but to actually get an offer, you gotta do it mostly on your own.