Law School

[good sam]

harvey spector isn't real. I'm the first, not the next

LOL

[Aj3042]

I saw an alarming number of people not wearing yarlmukas all day on interview days, eating, drinking, and I assume making brachos. Always wondered if they had a psak or just didn't care either way.

You can't get a psak for making a bracha without a yarmulke except in the most extreme situations. I mean I guess you could but that's clearly a violation of Halacha.

[Aaaron]

Masters? It's a doctorate. Don't insult our profession.

My wife insisted on calling me "Doctor" after I graduated because she wants me to reciprocate when she gets her PhD.  Didn't last long.

[good sam]

My wife insisted on calling me "Doctor" after I graduated because she wants me to reciprocate when she gets her PhD.  Didn't last long.

I would think your wife should call you "Master" regardless of your degree.

[CS91]

I would think your wife should call you "Master" regardless of your degree.

Someone didn't take con law 

[prelaw]

Don't limit yourself. Get out of New York. Broaden your horizons. There are so many nice communities outside of the tri-state area. You will be a better Jew for it. If you go to Pitt, I will have you for your first shabbos.

Thank you so much for the offer!

are you single? if yes, go for it man

Yep.

All depends on your options in NY vs your options out of NY.  If your option in NY is Fordham, that may be different than if it was BLS. If your option oot is Penn, that may be different than if it was GW. Apply everywhere and come back when you get your results.

If you have decent lsat scores, I'd recommending asking some schools for fee waivers. Some might send you them on their own.

I assume I'll be able to get into Fordham. Wouldn't go to BLS if it was the only school I got in to.

First take the LSAT see what you get and then worry about where to apply.

Planning on taking the October LSAT. I want to be able to send out my applications as soon after receiving my score as possible so it would help to have some idea of where to apply before my official results are in.

You're missing lots of info. Are you married? CAN you get into Columbia or not? If yes why go anywhere else (unless it's Harvard or something)?

I'm single. Don't know how my LSAT will be so can't comment on chances at Columbia. If I can get in then I would obviously want to attend; the question is what I should do if I don't.

Love how  OP started a firestorm, his first post ever, and disappeared. I sense a fake

Thankfully I have better things to do with my time than make up stories and post them on forums.


Thank you to everyone for your comments, especially those who directly responded to my questions with helpful suggestions/insight. If you guys have any more comments (and I'm assuming you do) I look forward to reading them.

[CS91]

I assume I'll be able to get into Fordham. Wouldn't go to BLS if it was the only school I got in to.

Really not trying to sound like an elitist over here, but I don't think Fordham cuts it in this market. I know it's a better school than Cardozo, but from what I hear (and I know people in both schools), they're both similar in the sense that if you want to do biglaw, it's law review or bust.

Planning on taking the October LSAT. I want to be able to send out my applications as soon after receiving my score as possible so it would help to have some idea of where to apply before my official results are in.

You may already know this, but if you're taking the LSAT in October, you should make sure to apply for early decision at a school that may be a little bit of a reach for you based on your score. Also, just so you know, Penn has two early decision dates, so you can technically apply ED at one school in November (i.e. NYU or Columbia), and then if you don't get in, apply for the second round of ED at Penn which I think is in January.

[AJK]

Have to agree with shiframeir on this topic.

While the legal market has changed somewhat since the classes of '09-'11 (maybe 2012, too), it is still quite bleak.  And though I try not to be biased, I can't help but maintain the opinion that one should only attend law school if he or she gets into T-14 or has tuition covered (either through scholarship or parents or otherwise).

The law school juice is otherwise not worth the squeeze.

What people fail to comprehend when looking at the 150K-200K price of law school is two-fold, the importance of which cannot be overstated, IMO:

1) The odds of securing a coveted Big Law position making $160K per year to start is far from certain, even for those who attend T-14.  Failing to secure that type of gig and then being faced with the very daunting prospect of servicing that $200K debt could easily compel an early-life existential crisis.

2) People think: "So 200K investment... $160K per year salary... I'll be able to pay off 80% within the first year!" Wrong. First, unless Uncle Sam croaks, the borrower must pay back their debt with *after-tax* dollars. So that first year, making $160K, you'll be in the highest tax bracket and will take home probably $100K. After, you know, living life and the costs doing so entails, a person will be left with, what, $70K to be uber conservative? So, right there one has gone from repaying his loan in about 14 or so months to three years.

...and all of that is before this powerful thing--that like fire can help or harm--called "compound interest." In this case, it's the Devil Incarnate. That $200K, some of which has started accruing interest the moment you sign that dotted line, can easily turn into double that, or $400K in after tax money, depending on how aggressively a person attacks it. So, if you've read this far, that *big-law* associate has now jumped into a hole that will take no less than 6 years to climb out of. (Assume for the purposes of discussion that the lock-step raises are expended on increased cost of living thereby making the point moot.)

So... can you imagine what someone would do if he or she could only secure a job that paid $60k? Or no job in law at all? 

I'm not saying law school is an objectively poor decision--far from it. I'm just saying it takes a serious bit of introspection, fortitude, and reality-checking before diving in.

[Aaaron]

One more thing to keep in mind since shiframeir and AJK mention loads of debt, if you get a gov't job (which half the attorneys in Baltimore have), you're probably eligible for loan forgiveness after 10 years, and your payments are capped at a percentage of your salary during those initial 10 years.

[Aj3042]

Have to agree with shiframeir on this topic.

While the legal market has changed somewhat since the classes of '09-'11 (maybe 2012, too), it is still quite bleak.  And though I try not to be biased, I can't help but maintain the opinion that one should only attend law school if he or she gets into T-14 or has tuition covered (either through scholarship or parents or otherwise).

The law school juice is otherwise not worth the squeeze.

What people fail to comprehend when looking at the 150K-200K price of law school is two-fold, the importance of which cannot be overstated, IMO:

1) The odds of securing a coveted Big Law position making $160K per year to start is far from certain, even for those who attend T-14.  Failing to secure that type of gig and then being faced with the very daunting prospect of servicing that $200K debt could easily compel an early-life existential crisis.

2) People think: "So 200K investment... $160K per year salary... I'll be able to pay off 80% within the first year!" Wrong. First, unless Uncle Sam croaks, the borrower must pay back their debt with *after-tax* dollars. So that first year, making $160K, you'll be in the highest tax bracket and will take home probably $100K. After, you know, living life and the costs doing so entails, a person will be left with, what, $70K to be uber conservative? So, right there one has gone from repaying his loan in about 14 or so months to three years.

...and all of that is before this powerful thing--that like fire can help or harm--called "compound interest." In this case, it's the Devil Incarnate. That $200K, some of which has started accruing interest the moment you sign that dotted line, can easily turn into double that, or $400K in after tax money, depending on how aggressively a person attacks it. So, if you've read this far, that *big-law* associate has now jumped into a hole that will take no less than 6 years to climb out of. (Assume for the purposes of discussion that the lock-step raises are expended on increased cost of living thereby making the point moot.)

So... can you imagine what someone would do if he or she could only secure a job that paid $60k? Or no job in law at all? 

I'm not saying law school is an objectively poor decision--far from it. I'm just saying it takes a serious bit of introspection, fortitude, and reality-checking before diving in.

Very good point-the interest really makes a tough situation a whole lot tougher.

[AJK]

One more thing to keep in mind since shiframeir and AJK mention loads of debt, if you get a gov't job (which half the attorneys in Baltimore have), you're probably eligible for loan forgiveness after 10 years, and your payments are capped at a percentage of your salary during those initial 10 years.

I was going to mention that, and Baltimore is a distinct anomaly in this regard, but that sounds like prison to me. Being compelled to work in gov't for ten years just to pay off your loans seems criminal. (And, to be sure, it ain't such a simple task to find a job in gov't neitha.)

But, yes, if you had aspirations of working in gov't anyway, then this is a good option.

[AJK]

Very good point-the interest really makes a tough situation a whole lot tougher.

Interest and taxes. Potentially the proverbial death knell.

[CS91]

Have to agree with shiframeir on this topic.

While the legal market has changed somewhat since the classes of '09-'11 (maybe 2012, too), it is still quite bleak.  And though I try not to be biased, I can't help but maintain the opinion that one should only attend law school if he or she gets into T-14 or has tuition covered (either through scholarship or parents or otherwise).

The law school juice is otherwise not worth the squeeze.

What people fail to comprehend when looking at the 150K-200K price of law school is two-fold, the importance of which cannot be overstated, IMO:

1) The odds of securing a coveted Big Law position making $160K per year to start is far from certain, even for those who attend T-14.  Failing to secure that type of gig and then being faced with the very daunting prospect of servicing that $200K debt could easily compel an early-life existential crisis.

2) People think: "So 200K investment... $160K per year salary... I'll be able to pay off 80% within the first year!" Wrong. First, unless Uncle Sam croaks, the borrower must pay back their debt with *after-tax* dollars. So that first year, making $160K, you'll be in the highest tax bracket and will take home probably $100K. After, you know, living life and the costs doing so entails, a person will be left with, what, $70K to be uber conservative? So, right there one has gone from repaying his loan in about 14 or so months to three years.

...and all of that is before this powerful thing--that like fire can help or harm--called "compound interest." In this case, it's the Devil Incarnate. That $200K, some of which has started accruing interest the moment you sign that dotted line, can easily turn into double that, or $400K in after tax money, depending on how aggressively a person attacks it. So, if you've read this far, that *big-law* associate has now jumped into a hole that will take no less than 6 years to climb out of. (Assume for the purposes of discussion that the lock-step raises are expended on increased cost of living thereby making the point moot.)

So... can you imagine what someone would do if he or she could only secure a job that paid $60k? Or no job in law at all? 

I'm not saying law school is an objectively poor decision--far from it. I'm just saying it takes a serious bit of introspection, fortitude, and reality-checking before diving in.

Really well said. I'll just add as a data point that I just went through the OCI process back in August at a T-14 school and aside from the law review kids who absolutely killed 1L, most people that I know only received 1 offer, and a couple got 2 or 3. (I've heard about a fair share of people with 0 offers, but thankfully nobody that I know personally.) So like AJK said, even if you do go to a T-14 school, it's not like firms will be throwing offers at you left and right.

[Ergel]

I think it also gets lost in the shuffle the amount of work you do if you get the coveted biglaw job. You are working 60+ hour weeks for that $160K. That should be part of the decision as well.

Although if you're AJK,  it seems as if you don't need to work at all

[kangarruu]

I was going to mention that, and Baltimore is a distinct anomaly in this regard, but that sounds like prison to me. Being compelled to work in gov't for ten years just to pay off your loans seems criminal. (And, to be sure, it ain't such a simple task to find a job in gov't neitha.)

But, yes, if you had aspirations of working in gov't anyway, then this is a good option.

Government or 501(c)(3). And I agree, it's not so easy to get a government job. Fortunately, once you're in, you're in for keeps.

[Super Speed]

Government or 501(c)(3). And I agree, it's not so easy to get a government job. Fortunately, once you're in, you're in for keeps.

How does that work?

[AJK]

Government or 501(c)(3). And I agree, it's not so easy to get a government job. Fortunately, once you're in, you're in for keeps.

Correct. Not for profit works, too.

Don't get me wrong, I know of plenty of people, mostly in Baltimore/Silver Spring/DC, who have pretty darn cushy gigs.

Six-figure, 9 to 5, pension-earning jobs.

Sure, it will take a few years to get to the six figure money, but there is plenty to be said for a 9-5 job (in addition to loan forgiveness) which allows you to eat dinner with the family and gives a person the opportunity to put his or her kids into bed every night.

Ergel as usual is not wrong in pointing out that it is the rule rather than the exception that these firms pay the type of money they do to entitled law school brats without a whit of legal knowledge because they expect slavery in return.

[Aj3042]

I think it also gets lost in the shuffle the amount of work you do if you get the coveted biglaw job. You are working 60+ hour weeks for that $160K. That should be part of the decision as well.

Although if you're AJK,  it seems as if you don't need to work at all

Definitely true.
As an aside, I see people keep writing biglaw as one word. I'm assuming that's slang because I'm pretty sure there's no such a word.

[TimT]

Definitely true.
As an aside, I see people keep writing biglaw as one word. I'm assuming that's slang because I'm pretty sure there's no such a word.

Megafirms are called biglaw. Used in an informal way.

[Freddie]

What I learned from this thread:

Only go to a T14 school. You will go 200k into debt but if you're lucky enough to get a biglaw job after that, you get to shave on chol hamoed and make brochos without a yarmulka.