Law School

[thaber]

Thankfully I have better things to do with my time than make up stories and post them on forums.

Was just kidding around, much hatzlacha with whatever you decide, if you end up on the West Coast you're welcome to come over for a Shabbos meal

[thaber]

By the way, I'm not a lawyer, and have never interviewed etc. But there are plenty of guys with yarmulkas, and even untrimmed beards, that have made partner in very well paying law firms. I know a couple myself. There are high profile lawyers who wear yarmulkas in court on tv, whatever. And there are a significant amount of frum women who are able to do the female equivelant without compromise, which is probably just as difficult if not more so.
When I was a teenager I interviewed for a summer job in a store on a busy street in a frum neighberhood. the (frum) guy hired me on the condition I wear a cap. I felt so akward and weird with that that I turned the job down. I wouldn't want people to feel the same way about law school.

[henche]

2) People think: "So 200K investment... $160K per year salary... I'll be able to pay off 80% within the first year!" Wrong. First, unless Uncle Sam croaks, the borrower must pay back their debt with *after-tax* dollars. So that first year, making $160K, you'll be in the highest tax bracket and will take home probably $100K. After, you know, living life and the costs doing so entails, a person will be left with, what, $70K to be uber conservative? So, right there one has gone from repaying his loan in about 14 or so months to three years.

...and all of that is before this powerful thing--that like fire can help or harm--called "compound interest." In this case, it's the Devil Incarnate. That $200K, some of which has started accruing interest the moment you sign that dotted line, can easily turn into double that, or $400K in after tax money, depending on how aggressively a person attacks it. So, if you've read this far, that *big-law* associate has now jumped into a hole that will take no less than 6 years to climb out of. (Assume for the purposes of discussion that the lock-step raises are expended on increased cost of living thereby making the point moot.)

This is  a very important point.  That debt is a real beast, even in biglaw.  I know a fellow in biglaw (with a few kids) who is eligible for, and was considering, income based repayment (which of course comes with its own ball and chain).

[henche]

What I learned from this thread:

Only go to a T14 school. You will go 200k into debt but if you're lucky enough to get a biglaw job after that, you get to shave on chol hamoed and make brochos without a yarmulka.

Don't forget shaking hands.

[henche]

I assume I'll be able to get into Fordham. Wouldn't go to BLS if it was the only school I got in to.

Fordham's employment rates in the past few years have not been terrific, even with their vaunted "NYC connections."  And in my anecdotal experience (is that a term?), they are not very accommodating to yeshiva guys financially, since they typically take almost all the yeshiva guys who missed out on Columbia/NYU.  I've known of people getting almost as much scholarship at an out of town T-14 as in Fordham.

[Freddie]

Don't forget shaking hands.

Basically, all the popcorn threads.

[Achas Veachas]

Basically, all the popcorn threads.

You mean you get to bash Chabad too? Where do I sign up?

[henche]

You mean you get to bash Chabad too? Where do I sign up?

Well, chabad is often a big part of going to a OOT law school, if you are single at least.  I used to eat at chabad on average once a shabbos, and on every other Monday nights when they had free chinese for us. 

[Ergel]

Ergel as usual is not wrong

[good sam]

By the way, I'm not a lawyer, and have never interviewed etc. But there are plenty of guys with yarmulkas, and even untrimmed beards, that have made partner in very well paying law firms. I know a couple myself. There are high profile lawyers who wear yarmulkas in court on tv, whatever. And there are a significant amount of frum women who are able to do the female equivelant without compromise, which is probably just as difficult if not more so.
When I was a teenager I interviewed for a summer job in a store on a busy street in a frum neighberhood. the (frum) guy hired me on the condition I wear a cap. I felt so akward and weird with that that I turned the job down. I wouldn't want people to feel the same way about law school.

Everyone can point to someone they know with a beard and long payis who made it in a big firm, but they are a small exception to the rule. I personally interviewed with a yarlmuka (not because of halacha but because I just felt too weird not wearing it) and always felt I walked in to the interview with 2 strikes. Sometimes it's anti-semitism, and sometimes it's because all the interviewer sees is early fridays and long holidays.

I also know a number of people who decided mid-process to remove their yarlmukas for interviews and immediately began to get offers.  Halachically/Hashkafically it's not a simple matter, but if you think wearing a yarlmuka doesn't affect your employment prospects, you are mistaken.

[henche]

By the way, I'm not a lawyer, and have never interviewed etc. But there are plenty of guys with yarmulkas, and even untrimmed beards, that have made partner in very well paying law firms. I know a couple myself. There are high profile lawyers who wear yarmulkas in court on tv, whatever. And there are a significant amount of frum women who are able to do the female equivelant without compromise, which is probably just as difficult if not more so.
When I was a teenager I interviewed for a summer job in a store on a busy street in a frum neighberhood. the (frum) guy hired me on the condition I wear a cap. I felt so akward and weird with that that I turned the job down. I wouldn't want people to feel the same way about law school.

Like this one: http://www.srz.com/Shlomo_C_Twerski/

[henche]

Everyone can point to someone they know with a beard and long payis who made it in a big firm, but they are a small exception to the rule. I personally interviewed with a yarlmuka (not because of halacha but because I just felt too weird not wearing it) and always felt I walked in to the interview with 2 strikes. Sometimes it's anti-semitism, and sometimes it's because all the interviewer sees is early fridays and long holidays.

I also know a number of people who decided mid-process to remove their yarlmukas for interviews and immediately began to get offers.  Halachically/Hashkafically it's not a simple matter, but if you think wearing a yarlmuka doesn't affect your employment prospects, you are mistaken.

They probably also reexamined their interviewing generally.  I have heard such stories, but they're hard to prove.  I've also seen yarmulke clad folks knocking it out of the park at interviews.

[good sam]

They probably also reexamined their interviewing generally.  I have heard such stories, but they're hard to prove.  I've also seen yarmulke clad folks knocking it out of the park at interviews.

Precisely. If they were only above-average they wouldn't have a shot.

[Freddie]

Well, chabad is often a big part of going to a OOT law school, if you are single at least.  I used to eat at chabad on average once a shabbos, and on every other Monday nights when they had free chinese for us.

Serious question, Henche. Did your experience with Chabad expose you just to the friendly smiles and free food side of Chabad or to the actual chasidus that it's based on?

I ask because it makes sense that life in an OOT law school does bring many future lawyers into contact with shluchim and I am wondering how much this opportunity is being capitalized on.

[good sam]

Serious question, Henche. Did your experience with Chabad expose you just to the friendly smiles and free food side of Chabad or to the actual chasidus that it's based on?

I ask because it makes sense that life in an OOT law school does bring many future lawyers into contact with shluchim and I am wondering how much this opportunity is being capitalized on.

Capitalized??

Is the Chabad mission to spread Judaism or Chabad-style Chasidus?

[Freddie]

Capitalized??

Is the Chabad mission to spread Judaism or Chabad-style Chasidus?

To a frum law student?!?! What should the shliach do? Put tefillin on him???

[jj1000]

To a frum law student?!?! What should the shliach do? Put tefillin on him???

Many, probably would be a good idea.

[shiframeir]

Planning on taking the October LSAT. I want to be able to send out my applications as soon after receiving my score as possible so it would help to have some idea of where to apply before my official results are in.

I'm single. Don't know how my LSAT will be so can't comment on chances at Columbia. If I can get in then I would obviously want to attend; the question is what I should do if I don't.

I strongly recommend trying to take the June LSAT (is that still possible)? study hard for a month and see what u can get. that gets u into the Columbia early decision at top of pile, and also gets you lots of fee waivers (assuming you do well) without asking for a bunch of schools (check the box to let people know your score if u think u will do well). IME (myself and friends), one of the biggest stats on your application is the date of receipt.

[yitrap]

Many, probably would be a good idea.

Are you saying they should put teffilin on them?
Idk about you but to me I see shabbos, kashurus and Davening three times a day as the definition of frum or not... You can't be frum and not putting on Teffilin every day... Unless you're a women and I don't want to go down that road today

[eliteflyer]

Like this one: http://www.srz.com/Shlomo_C_Twerski/

Or these three:
http://www.cliffordchance.com/people_and_places/people/partners/us/avrohom_gelber.html
http://www.curtis.com/sitecontent.cfm?pageid=8&itemid=517
http://www.weil.com/people/chayim-neubort