Law School

[zale]

That's ridiculous. Take off your yarmulka to succeed in the workplace? I must vociferously object lest some innocent person be discouraged by your post. If you are talented and motivated, you will succeed. Your Yiddishkeit is not an obstacle; it's an asset.

I agree with the former part of this statement, but not the latter.

I agree that you should never, ever compromise your religious beliefs unless you are in a dire situation, but I do not agree that Yiddishkeit is necessarily an asset in the workforce.

As a Frum Jew, you sometimes need to accept that there are limitations, especially in business. If you get turned down at an interview and you believe it is because of your Yarmulke, then remember that this is what is called a "Nisayon". If you actually pay attention to what you believe in and what you Daven for three times a day, then you already know that Hashem will provide, one way or another.

Another point: actively seeking out Heterim to compromise on Yiddishkeit is one of the most dangerous and damaging things you can do to your spirituality and that of your family. Think of a Heter like medical steroids. When a part of your body like your lungs are G-d forbid failing, a steroid shot may be required to get it back to its normal function. It's a huge compromise, but one that is absolutely necessary. Take steroids too often, and it will destroy your body. Likewise, Heterim are meant to be used in dire situations.

Start getting a Heter to walk around without a Yarmulke and to shake hands with members of the opposite gender, and your children will take this to the next level. They won't care about the Heter or your lengthly explanation about why you needed to go without a Yarmulke.

[Yehuda25]

I agree with the former part of this statement, but not the latter.

I agree that you should never, ever compromise your religious beliefs unless you are in a dire situation, but I do not agree that Yiddishkeit is necessarily an asset in the workforce.

As a Frum Jew, you sometimes need to accept that there are limitations, especially in business. If you get turned down at an interview and you believe it is because of your Yarmulke, then remember that this is what is called a "Nisayon". If you actually pay attention to what you believe in and what you Daven for three times a day, then you already know that Hashem will provide, one way or another.

Another point: actively seeking out Heterim to compromise on Yiddishkeit is one of the most dangerous and damaging things you can do to your spirituality and that of your family. Think of a Heter like medical steroids. When a part of your body like your lungs are G-d forbid failing, a steroid shot may be required to get it back to its normal function. It's a huge compromise, but one that is absolutely necessary. Take steroids too often, and it will destroy your body. Likewise, Heterim are meant to be used in dire situations.

Start getting a Heter to walk around without a Yarmulke and to shake hands with members of the opposite gender, and your children will take this to the next level. They won't care about the Heter or your lengthly explanation about why you needed to go without a Yarmulke.

+1 well said, though I would say that I wouldnt put taking of your yarlmuke and shaking hands with members of the opposite gender in the same category.

[CS91]

Start getting a Heter to walk around without a Yarmulke and to shake hands with members of the opposite gender, and your children will take this to the next level. They won't care about the Heter or your lengthly explanation about why you needed to go without a Yarmulke.

Um, completely disagree. Don't get me wrong, I agree that "heter shopping" is a slippery slope, but what you're saying in the last paragraph is a little ridiculous. If you don't hide what you're doing from your kid and you give them an explanation when they ask about it, I don't think that you're going to find your kid eating a cheeseburger in McDonalds the next Yom Kippur. Kids react to what they see at home. If they know that their father does things for work but they still see that their father is strong in his beliefs etc., seeing him shake a woman's hand isn't going to make him crazy. I have many friends from elementary/high school that went OTD, and for the majority of them, it began with their parents not practicing what they preached and hiding things from their kids/telling them what to do without an explanation.

If a father yells at his son for playing sports without a yamulka, but the father doesn't wear one all day at work and doesn't explain it, yes, the kid will think he's full of it. But after an explanation, I don't think so.

[zale]

Um, completely disagree. Don't get me wrong, I agree that "heter shopping" is a slippery slope, but what you're saying in the last paragraph is a little ridiculous. If you don't hide what you're doing from your kid and you give them an explanation when they ask about it, I don't think that you're going to find your kid eating a cheeseburger in McDonalds the next Yom Kippur. Kids react to what they see at home. If they know that their father does things for work but they still see that their father is strong in his beliefs etc., seeing him shake a woman's hand isn't going to make him crazy. I have many friends from elementary/high school that went OTD, and for the majority of them, it began with their parents not practicing what they preached and hiding things from their kids/telling them what to do without an explanation.

If a father yells at his son for playing sports without a yamulka, but the father doesn't wear one all day at work and doesn't explain it, yes, the kid will think he's full of it. But after an explanation, I don't think so.

Most children look to their parents for spiritual guidance. The child does not care that you had a Heter or an explanation or excuse for going to work without a Yarmulke. Rather, the child sees one thing: compromise. You bent or found a "loophole" in Halacha to hide (or violate) your religious practices so that you can possibly earn more money or get a better job. This is a free pass for the child to not only do the same, but take it to an entirely new level.

Yes, parents who don't practice what they preach ALSO cause children to go OTD, but in this particular thread we are talking about the parent who pushes aside his religious practices for the sake of a better job.

[CS91]

Yes, parents who don't practice what they preach ALSO cause children to go OTD, but in this particular thread we are talking about the parent who pushes aside his religious practices for the sake of a better job.

Look, I can understand why many people wouldn't feel comfortable taking off their yarmulka, even if it meant getting a better job. But to accuse every single person that does this of just "pushing aside his religion" is just wrong. You're basically accusing everyone that does this of not caring about wearing a yamulka. I know a fair amount of people that do it, and none of them are guilty of not caring. These are guys that spoke with their LOR before taking it off, go to minyan 3 times a day, and even give the daf in their local shul.

[zale]

Look, I can understand why many people wouldn't feel comfortable taking off their yarmulka, even if it meant getting a better job. But to accuse every single person that does this of just "pushing aside his religion" is just wrong. You're basically accusing everyone that does this of not caring about wearing a yamulka. I know a fair amount of people that do it, and none of them are guilty of not caring. These are guys that spoke with their LOR before taking it off, go to minyan 3 times a day, and even give the daf in their local shul.

Nowhere did I indicate that I am accusing everyone who does this of not caring about religion.

If the individual is a Baal Teshuva who is a professional boxer or baseball player, or maybe even a doctor or lawyer, I can understand the Heter. Everything positive a Baal Teshuva does is a step forward.

However, there is absolutely no way that I can understand how a Yid who grew up in an "Ehrliche" household would dare take off his Yarmulke for anything other than a danger to his life. Sorry, it completely boggles my mind.

[CS91]

Nowhere did I indicate that I am accusing everyone who does this of not caring about religion.

If the individual is a Baal Teshuva who is a professional boxer or baseball player, or maybe even a doctor or lawyer, I can understand the Heter. Everything positive a Baal Teshuva does is a step forward.

However, there is absolutely no way that I can understand how a Yid who grew up in an "Ehrliche" household would dare take off his Yarmulke for anything other than a danger to his life. Sorry, it completely boggles my mind.

So if I understand you correctly, if you are not a Baal Teshuva and you take off your Yamulka, you don't care about religion. Right?

[Yehuda25]

So if I understand you correctly, if you are not a Baal Teshuva and you take off your Yamulka, you don't care about religion. Right?

incorrect, you just have your priorities in the wrong order.

[henche]

+1 well said, though I would say that I wouldnt put taking of your yarlmuke and shaking hands with members of the opposite gender in the same category.

Which order would you put them in?

[reed]

However, there is absolutely no way that I can understand how a Yid who grew up in an "Ehrliche" household would dare take off his Yarmulke for anything other than a danger to his life. Sorry, it completely boggles my mind.

Worse, Are those that wear suede kippah or a srugi or the sort. Better not to wear one at all, am I right? Unless one didn't grow up in an " erlicha" home. If that's the case then he shouldn't wear a yalmuka because doesn't really belong anyway.

I think Moshe Rabbainu wore a big 6 part velvet with a rim, while the rambam wore a 4 part with no rim so either way is the way to go.

[CS91]

Worse, Are those that wear suede kippah or a srugi or the sort. Better not to wear one at all, am I right? Unless one didn't grow up in an " erlicha" home. If that's the case then he shouldn't wear a yalmuka because doesn't really belong anyway.

I think Moshe Rabbainu wore a big 6 part velvet with a rim, while the rambam wore a 4 part with no rim so either way is the way to go.

[Yehuda25]

Which order would you put them in?

Hard to define them "in order", thought the way I would define them is,


Not wearing/ wearing your yarlmuke only has to do with you meaning you arent affecting anyone else


Not shaking hands with a lady/man  could be a huge chilul hashem under certain circumstances

[Yehuda25]

Worse, Are those that wear suede kippah or a srugi or the sort. Better not to wear one at all, am I right? Unless one didn't grow up in an " erlicha" home. If that's the case then he shouldn't wear a yalmuka because doesn't really belong anyway.

I think Moshe Rabbainu wore a big 6 part velvet with a rim, while the rambam wore a 4 part with no rim so either way is the way to go.

not at all, who said there is anything wrong with a suede yarlmuke or a kippah srugah?

[henche]

Hard to define them "in order", thought the way I would define them is,


Not wearing/ wearing your yarlmuke only has to do with you meaning you arent affecting anyone else


Not shaking hands with a lady/man  could be a huge chilul hashem under certain circumstances

Wait, you think not shaking could be a chillul Hashem?  How do you figure?

(NTD: I do shake hands with everyone.)

[Yehuda25]

Wait, you think not shaking could be a chillul Hashem?  How do you figure?

(NTD: I do shake hands with everyone.)

correct. You should be able to figure out for yourself why tlnot shaking could be a chilup hashem

[jj1000]

correct. You should be able to figure out for yourself why tlnot shaking could be a chilup hashem

Same reason not eating with everyone else is a chilul hashem? Even if your client invites you for dinner at his house.

[henche]

correct. You should be able to figure out for yourself why tlnot shaking could be a chilup hashem

I don't think I have the same definition of chillul Hashem as you. 

[thaber]

correct. You should be able to figure out for yourself why tlnot shaking could be a chilup hashem

It's factually impossible to be doing the ratzon Hashem and also be making a chilul Hashem. according to the Chazon Ish it's in the same category as Avodah zara. So if it's going to make someone feel bad (which it probably won't, unless 'someone' is the frum guy) should I bow down to the local idol?

[CS91]

It's factually impossible to be doing the ratzon Hashem and also be making a chilul Hashem. according to the Chazon Ish it's in the same category as Avodah zara. So if it's going to make someone feel bad (which it probably won't, unless 'someone' is the frum guy) should I bow down to the local idol?

Now that I know that shaking a woman's hand is equivalent to Avodah Zara, I know what OCI really stands for– On Campus Idols.

Mind. Blown. 

[jj1000]

Now that I know that shaking a woman's hand is equivalent to Avodah Zara, I know what OCI really stands for– On Campus Idols.

Mind. Blown. 

May as well sleep with the woman recruiters like the non-frum guys do.