Law School

[Yehuda25]

I don't think I have the same definition of chillul Hashem as you.

that's completely fine

[Yehuda25]

It's factually impossible to be doing the ratzon Hashem and also be making a chilul Hashem. according to the Chazon Ish it's in the same category as Avodah zara. So if it's going to make someone feel bad (which it probably won't, unless 'someone' is the frum guy) should I bow down to the local idol?

correct, the chazon ish does say something like that

[CS91]

May as well sleep with the woman recruiters like the non-frum guys do.

And I thought those guys did better at OCI because they weren't wearing yamulkas...

[reed]

And I thought those guys did better at OCI because they weren't wearing yamulkas...

I would sleep with a woman before shaking her hand. I'm very makpid on idol worship.

[Achas Veachas]

I would sleep with a woman before shaking her hand. I'm very makpid on idol worship.

But sleeping can lead to handshaking...

[reed]

But sleeping can lead to handshaking...

You have to set gedarim obviously

[Achas Veachas]

You have to set gedarim obviously

Don't you think insisting on sleeping with gloves would be somewhat of a Chillul Hashem?

[CS91]

I would sleep with a woman before shaking her hand. I'm very makpid on idol worship.

What about sleeping with the male recruiter? That will score you even more points with the firm...

[reed]

Don't you think insisting on sleeping with gloves would be somewhat of a Chillul Hashem?

I suppose it depends if you're wearing a yalmukah as well or not

[reed]

What about sleeping with the male recruiter? That will score you even more points with the firm...

What's the point, just shake his hand

[shiframeir]

So happy the discussion took a positive turn BH, as it was getting too contentious. Peeps, please dont judge any other jew, halacha is never cut and dry and there are always competing factors that must be considered. I know i made a pretty big chillul hashem (will never forget it) at a Skadden recruiting lunch when i was a fiery 1L straight from yeshiva. I walk in and there are the 2 blondest women skadden could hire waiting to greet everyone with their hands outstretched. BH i was careful not to even glance (let alone stare) at their fingernails, and with my head down i softly tried to explain that i'm sorry but per my religion i dont shake hands with any woman but my wife. they and the classmates around me gave the most awkward look for like 5 seconds, then said ok, they are sorry (these were recruiting people). my lunch was pretty downhill from there.

After that i learned up the sugya (this is actually a nice piece by R Gil http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2005/07/shaking-hands-with-women.html) and realized that there is what to rely on, and more importantly, the negative slight and misogynist implication is clearly not something that will make God's name great in the world (as our essential mission is stated), so in my personal opinion, after speaking with my rebbe, since then i throw my dead fish hand at every shiksa i see. if u disagree, thats fine, but dont assume people choose differently BECAUSE they skimp or follow ta'avah, sometimes people just weigh the competing factors in all decisions we must make differently (see R Chaim Shmulevitz's opening on Aveirah lishma, really important on this topic).

[Ergel]

While your conclusion may be correct, I completely disagree with how you got there

[shiframeir]

While your conclusion may be correct, I completely disagree with how you got there

R' Ergel, could u explain? u disagree with competing halachic principles?

[skyguy918]

So happy the discussion took a positive turn BH, as it was getting too contentious. Peeps, please dont judge any other jew, halacha is never cut and dry and there are always competing factors that must be considered. I know i made a pretty big chillul hashem (will never forget it) at a Skadden recruiting lunch when i was a fiery 1L straight from yeshiva. I walk in and there are the 2 blondest women skadden could hire waiting to greet everyone with their hands outstretched. BH i was careful not to even glance (let alone stare) at their fingernails, and with my head down i softly tried to explain that i'm sorry but per my religion i dont shake hands with any woman but my wife. they and the classmates around me gave the most awkward look for like 5 seconds, then said ok, they are sorry (these were recruiting people). my lunch was pretty downhill from there.

After that i learned up the sugya (this is actually a nice piece by R Gil http://hirhurim.blogspot.com/2005/07/shaking-hands-with-women.html) and realized that there is what to rely on, and more importantly, the negative slight and misogynist implication is clearly not something that will make God's name great in the world (as our essential mission is stated), so in my personal opinion, after speaking with my rebbe, since then i throw my dead fish hand at every shiksa i see. if u disagree, thats fine, but dont assume people choose differently BECAUSE they skimp or follow ta'avah, sometimes people just weigh the competing factors in all decisions we must make differently (see R Chaim Shmulevitz's opening on Aveirah lishma, really important on this topic).

A tzad heter doesn't all of a sudden turn being machmir into a chillul Hashem. It means that being meikel is likely not a chillul Hashem in and of itself. Why do you think those awkward 5 seconds were a chillul Hashem?

[shiframeir]

A tzad heter doesn't all of a sudden turn being machmir into a chillul Hashem. It means that being meikel is likely not a chillul Hashem in and of itself. Why do you think those awkward 5 seconds were a chillul Hashem?

Because women (and men who are sensitive to it), who are disadvantaged in many religious circles, may (and in some cases do) assume that no matter what i say i am covering up a mysoginist attitude of women being dirty/impure or something similar, which leads to an assumption that our religion is backward and silly, and our god is either an idiot or evil.

chillul means making not special/ordinary. if our religion/God is implied to have the frailties of bigoted men, there is chillul haShem, and it'll be harder to see the day when hashem is one and his name is one (per meforshim, his name being his status in the eyes of the nations).

[skyguy918]

Because women (and men who are sensitive to it), who are disadvantaged in many religious circles, may (and in some cases do) assume that no matter what i say i am covering up a mysoginist attitude of women being dirty/impure or something similar, which leads to an assumption that our religion is backward and silly, and our god is either an idiot or evil.

chillul means making not special/ordinary. if our religion/God is implied to have the frailties of bigoted men, there is chillul haShem, and it'll be harder to see the day when hashem is one and his name is one (per meforshim, his name being his status in the eyes of the nations).

I can't say with certainty that this isn't a valid interpretation of chillul, but I strongly disagree. If it somehow came up in conversation that you'd only marry another Jew, would it be a potential chillul Hashem because someone might think that prohibition is borne out of racism, no matter how you try to convince them otherwise?

[Achas Veachas]

I can't say with certainty that this isn't a valid interpretation of chillul, but I strongly disagree. If it somehow came up in conversation that you'd only marry another Jew, would it be a potential chillul Hashem because someone might think that prohibition is borne out of racism, no matter how you try to convince them otherwise?

That is why the argument can never be "what will others say". It depends only on what Halachah says, and if Halachah says something is wrong ייקוב הדין את ההר.

There's a reason the FIRST Seif in Shulchan Aruch says "לא יתבייש מפני בני אדם המלעיגים עליו"

Now while my Rov would Pasken that shaking a woman's hand is forbidden for business, evryone has to follow their own Rov and what's right for one person is not necessarily right for everyone...

[thaber]

I can't say with certainty that this isn't a valid interpretation of chillul, but I strongly disagree. If it somehow came up in conversation that you'd only marry another Jew, would it be a potential chillul Hashem because someone might think that prohibition is borne out of racism, no matter how you try to convince them otherwise?

+1. I wasn't saying I personally follow the Chazon Ish. My whole point was that chillul Hashem is not the right words for this. There may be a 'don't make people uncomfortable' heter. but that's not chilul Hashem. Is it a chilul Hashem to wear your tzitzis out? not shave on chol hamoed? refuse to step in to a treife restaurant? there's heteirim for all of those, and by all means, seek out the tzad heter. I would if my job depended on it, or even if I just thought so. But it's wrong to term a machmir as a chilul Hashem

[thaber]

with my head down i softly tried to explain that i'm sorry but per my religion i dont shake hands with any woman but my wife.

You have to say it like R' Avigdor Miller did - I don't shake hands with beautiful women other than my wife.

since then i throw my dead fish hand at every shiksa i see.

As an aside, is there a heter to offer your hand lechatchila? or just to return the handshake?

[Ergel]

That is why the argument can never be "what will others say". It depends only on what Halachah says, and if Halachah says something is wrong ייקוב הדין את ההר.

Now while my Rov would Pasken that shaking a woman's hand is forbidden for business, evryone has to follow their own Rov and what's right for one person is not necessarily right for everyone...

Bingo