Law School

[thaber]

One thing is for sure R Elyahsiv wouldn't care what the Lubavitcher rebbe thought.

For sure? That's audacious. How do you know? I would assume he would respect his opinion as much as he would respect any other Torah scholars opinion.

[thaber]

I have trouble understanding why people think there is an issue of maris ayin to go to a treif restaurant. I do it all the time.  Sometimes I have even had kosher meals brought wrapped to me at these restaurants.

If you saw me at Legal Sea Food at a table with a few other lawyers, would you really have any ch'shash that I was eating their food?  Wouldn't the much more likely assumption be that either I was not eating or I was eating kosher food that had been brought in?

There's two schools of thought in the contemporary poskim.
1.people go to restaurants to eat the food that is typically served in the restaurant.  There are exceptions,  but that's the rule. And that's the assumption when you see someone in a restaurant.
2. People in midtown Manhattan or downtown Boston often meet in restaurants.  If a frum Jew is there he's probably there for a meeting.
Even according to #2,  having kosher food wrapped and brought in may not be ideal because the guy looking in the window,  who assumed you're there for a meeting,  now sees you eating. 

[thaber]

I want to preface my question by just clarifying that I'm not attacking at all. Just asking your opinion and how you feel about something because someone has brought this up to me before–

I'm assuming at least someone has asked (or wondered in their head) why you suddenly stopped shaving (or trimming, not sure what you usually have). It is also very possible that they have heard of sfira/3 weeks and know that for work, one is allowed to shave. They may know this by looking at other co-workers who are frum and are still clean shaven for example. Do you not think that there is a slight chance that a partner perhaps would get upset at you because you walk into a client's meeting or into court with a messy beard when they know that in reality, you are allowed to shave?

Again, just asking an innocent question because before law school I was working at a big 4 and during the 3 weeks, a non-jew asked me how come I (along with 99% of the other frum accountants at the firm) were allowed to shave but one specific individual wasn't. I was honestly stumped and didn't know how to respond. So again, not attacking at all, and you're of course entitled to do whatever makes you the most comfortable.

Why can't you say there's different opinions and levels of stringency in Jewish Law,  just as there is in civil law?

[skyguy918]

I have trouble understanding why people think there is an issue of maris ayin to go to a treif restaurant. I do it all the time.  Sometimes I have even had kosher meals brought wrapped to me at these restaurants.

If you saw me at Legal Sea Food at a table with a few other lawyers, would you really have any ch'shash that I was eating their food?  Wouldn't the much more likely assumption be that either I was not eating or I was eating kosher food that had been brought in?

Depends if you were wearing a yarmulke or not

[thaber]

R Thaber, you must agree that there is a huge difference between the question of shaking a hand, where the specific halacha on the books clashes with important halachic considerations and affects others, and wearing tzitzis, shaving etc.

what's the clash?

[henche]

There's two schools of thought in the contemporary poskim.
1.people go to restaurants to eat the food that is typically served in the restaurant.  There are exceptions,  but that's the rule. And that's the assumption when you see someone in a restaurant.

Yes, I don't get that one.  I mean, I believe you that poskim say it, but I just don't hear it too well.

Sure, if the only data points you have are (a) most people go to restaurants to eat their food, and (b), this person is in the restaurant, then the most logical conclusion is that this person is eating the food.  But that isn't all the data you have.

If the only data you have is that (a) most cars don't have electric motors, and (b) this is a car, then the most logical conclusion is that this car does not have an electric motor.  But if I told you another data point, that (c) this car has a decal that says Toyota Prius, and that (d) most cars that say Toyota Prius have electric motors, then you should consider all 4 factors together and you should conclude that this car probably has an electric motor, even though most cars don't. 

So in my case, you should add a third and fourth data point that (c) I am wearing a yarlmuke, and (d) most people who wear yarlmukes don't eat treif. 

I mean, once you're only going to pick certain data points, I will note to you that most people who fly first class also eat the food--which is treif.  But why go that far? Most people who cross the street eat treif.  Most people who pick their nose also eat treif. Most people who shop at Stop & Shop buy treif food there. Most people who buy coffee at Starbucks also buy pastries that are treif.  Most people who go to the zoo on chol hamoed pesach buy the goat food for the petting zoo which is chometz.  Most people who go to baseball games buy hot dogs. 

Maris ayin--what people see.  You should look at what you are doing through the eyes of the people who will actually see you and consider if they will think you are doing something wrong, based on all the things they will see. 

I don't know any other way to understand it.

[skyguy918]

Yes, I don't get that one.  I mean, I believe you that poskim say it, but I just don't hear it too well.

Sure, if the only data points you have are (a) most people go to restaurants to eat their food, and (b), this person is in the restaurant, then the most logical conclusion is that this person is eating the food.  But that isn't all the data you have.

If the only data you have is that (a) most cars don't have electric motors, and (b) this is a car, then the most logical conclusion is that this car does not have an electric motor.  But if I told you another data point, that (c) this car has a decal that says Toyota Prius, and that (d) most cars that say Toyota Prius have electric motors, then you should consider all 4 factors together and you should conclude that this car probably has an electric motor, even though most cars don't. 

So in my case, you should add a third and fourth data point that (c) I am wearing a yarlmuke, and (d) most people who wear yarlmukes don't eat treif. 

I mean, once you're only going to pick certain data points, I will note to you that most people who fly first class also eat the food--which is treif.  But why go that far? Most people who cross the street eat treif.  Most people who pick their nose also eat treif. Most people who shop at Stop & Shop buy treif food there. Most people who buy coffee at Starbucks also buy pastries that are treif.  Most people who go to the zoo on chol hamoed pesach buy the goat food for the petting zoo which is chometz.  Most people who go to baseball games buy hot dogs. 

Maris ayin--what people see.  You should look at what you are doing through the eyes of the people who will actually see you and consider if they will think you are doing something wrong, based on all the things they will see. 

I don't know any other way to understand it.

This is mostly utter nonsense. The data point about the yarmulke obviously can't be considered in the cheshbon, otherwise every case of maaris ayin would become mutar by simply making sure you're wearing a yarmulke. And the stuff about flying first class, etc - you don't do those things specifically in order to eat treif. But someone who goes into a restaurant is going in specifically to eat food, and the vast majority of food in a treif restaurant is treif.

The basis thaber brought for the matirim is that there's another purpose for going into a restaurant besides eating - namely a business meeting. [ETA] But as he also mentioned, this is not something that all poskim agree to.

[jj1000]

Yes, I don't get that one.  I mean, I believe you that poskim say it, but I just don't hear it too well.

Sure, if the only data points you have are (a) most people go to restaurants to eat their food, and (b), this person is in the restaurant, then the most logical conclusion is that this person is eating the food.  But that isn't all the data you have.

If the only data you have is that (a) most cars don't have electric motors, and (b) this is a car, then the most logical conclusion is that this car does not have an electric motor.  But if I told you another data point, that (c) this car has a decal that says Toyota Prius, and that (d) most cars that say Toyota Prius have electric motors, then you should consider all 4 factors together and you should conclude that this car probably has an electric motor, even though most cars don't. 

So in my case, you should add a third and fourth data point that (c) I am wearing a yarlmuke, and (d) most people who wear yarlmukes don't eat treif. 

I mean, once you're only going to pick certain data points, I will note to you that most people who fly first class also eat the food--which is treif.  But why go that far? Most people who cross the street eat treif.  Most people who pick their nose also eat treif. Most people who shop at Stop & Shop buy treif food there. Most people who buy coffee at Starbucks also buy pastries that are treif.  Most people who go to the zoo on chol hamoed pesach buy the goat food for the petting zoo which is chometz.  Most people who go to baseball games buy hot dogs. 

Maris ayin--what people see.  You should look at what you are doing through the eyes of the people who will actually see you and consider if they will think you are doing something wrong, based on all the things they will see. 

I don't know any other way to understand it.

Seems like you are taking this from your perspective.

I've dealt with many not frum people through my years in the Chabad system and I guarantee there are Jews if they saw me in Corcky and Lenny's would assume that it's also OK for them to eat there because they saw the Rabbi eating there.

Weather that person is reasonable or not, and weather halacha takes into consideration a reasonable frum/goyish or any other type of person is a good question.

I don't know the halacha but I know many people don't think like you...

[henche]

This is mostly utter nonsense. The data point about the yarmulke obviously can't be considered in the cheshbon, otherwise every case of maaris ayin would become mutar by simply making sure you're wearing a yarmulke. And the stuff about flying first class, etc - you don't do those things specifically in order to eat treif. But someone who goes into a restaurant is going in specifically to eat food, and the vast majority of food in a treif restaurant is treif.

The basis thaber brought for the matirim is that there's another purpose for going into a restaurant besides eating - namely a business meeting. [ETA] But as he also mentioned, this is not something that all poskim agree to.

Disagree. I'm simply raising the bar.  If you see a guy with a yarlmuke in Legal Sea Food with 2 other lawyers, 99 times out of 100 he's not eating treif.  If you see a guy in a yarlmuke sitting alone eating a big plate of ribs at an out of the way Texas BBQ, 99 times out of 100 he's eating treif.

Who cares what things you do specifically for what purposes--the main question is what the percentages are, and what normal people watching you will assume. 

[Freddie]

If you see a guy in a yarmulka in a brothel, he just came in to get change for the meter.

[henche]

If you see a guy in a yarmulka in a brothel, he just came in to get change for the meter.

Thank you, good example.  He didn't.

[Ergel]

and therefore not אביזרייהו דעריות, that doesn't make it muttar

What is the issur then? It's different than going on a packed train?

[Ergel]

Full disclosure: I wear at work, though I've often second-guessed my decision and would reevaluate if I were to switch jobs.

Why have you second-guessed your decision?

[AJK]

Why have you second-guessed your decision?

A discussion for another day.

[Freddie]

What is the issur then? It's different than going on a packed train?

Yes, it's different. Unless you are a frotteur.

[Ergel]

A discussion for another day.

Boooooooooooooooo

[mb1]

"Anti-keli"?  What's that mean? ChaimMoskowitz?

Can someone post the definition?

[zale]

I just can't help believe that a person with 100% emunah would ever take off his head covering... especially to get a job.

+1

I can't believe that one who grows up wearing a Yarmulke from age three, and has never stepped outside of his bedroom without one since, would actually seek out a Heter to take it off. It's פּריקת עול of the highest order. (Of course, once you go crying to a Rav, (especially a lenient Rav,) the Rav will have no choice but to find an obscure Heter for you. The mere fact that you went to the Rav to ask for the Heter is פּריקת עול.

Like I stated earlier, it's one thing if the guy is a Ba'al Teshuva and is working his way UP the ladder, but is just not ready to wear a Yarmulke at work yet. It's also one thing if a guy grows up in a MO family where sometimes they wear Yarmulke's and sometimes not. It's another thing for someone who grew up wearing a Yarmulke their entire life to then take it off because they believe that it might increase their chances to earn more money.

[zale]

What is the issur then? It's different than going on a packed train?

I hear this on the NYC Subway almost every day:

"Ladies and gentlemen, a crowded subway car is no excuse for sexual misconduct. If you feel you have been the victim of a crime, please notify a police officer or an MTA employee. Remain alert and have a safe day."

[Freddie]

I hear this on the NYC Subway almost every day:

"Ladies and gentlemen, a crowded subway car is no excuse for sexual misconduct. If you feel you have been the victim of a crime, please notify a police officer or an MTA employee. Remain alert and have a safe day."

No, it's just that it's so common, they don't even bother to announce it. If you get on a train, it's ASSUMED that you are consenting to being rubbed and touched.