Law School

[thaber]

What is the issur then? It's different than going on a packed train?

For one, inadvertent vs. purposeful touching (at least I hope so).

[ah]

Wow. Just wow. I have no idea WTF your problem is, but there is clearly something wrong with you. While most people here are having a mature discussion, you don't stop putting people who have differing opinions down. People that grow up in MO homes don't always wear yamulkas? Since when? Do you even realize how ridiculous of a statement that is? Get off your high horse and take your crap elsewhere. Just because someone doesn't dress the way that you do or have the same exact opinions that you do doesn't give you the right to put them down. And yes, I reread what I just wrote before posting it, and tried toning it down a bit, but there were no two ways about it.

not sure why you took such offense to this statement, MO can mean sooo many different things these days, and I know MANY people, friends and relatives as well who consider themselves MO and do take off their yarmulkas in certain situations (and have grown up with parents doing that as well), work being a big one but not the only one. There are also many MO who wouldn't dream of it. Thats why the title MO has very little meaning without explanation. (modern left, modern right, liberal, or machmir etc.)
Disclaimer: I am not following this thread, and am just commenting on this particular reaction, if I'm missing the context, I apologize .

[CS91]

not sure why you took such offense to this statement, MO can mean sooo many different things these days, and I know MANY people, friends and relatives as well who consider themselves MO and do take off their yarmulkas in certain situations (and have grown up with parents doing that as well), work being a big one but not the only one. There are also many MO who wouldn't dream of it. Thats why the title MO has very little meaning without explanation. (modern left, modern right, liberal, or machmir etc.)
Disclaimer: I am not following this thread, and am just commenting on this particular reaction, if I'm missing the context, I apologize .

I'm aware that there are people that classify themselves as MO that don't always wear their yamulkas. I am also aware that MO encompasses a wide range of people. The reason that I got upset at OP is because he made a blanket statement that was incorrect, degrading, and a clear indicator of his disrespect towards those that don't see eye-to-eye with him. Most of his other posts on the topic gave off the same impression as well. This last one was even worse than the rest, and it was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I'm all for having this discussion. I find it interesting to hear everyone's take on the matter and their personal experiences, but there's no reason to put people down.

[shiframeir]

Let's take a different scenario for a second, that isn't so contentious, and I actually had yesterday. A co worker is an avid baker, and she offered me, all excited, a piece of something she had baked.
Her, all excited, in front of several others: Want to try a piece of this cake I made, it's really good, and I never made it before
...
Again, I'm not coming to knock anybody, or say anyone's doing the wrong thing. It's a very difficult call each time. But to say that one who is machmir is wrong is also not right.

u make a pretty good point re the baker case, except that there there is no animus assumed, as opposed to the no handshake, which sometimes may lead to more animus (altz mysogeny and/or basic social requirements, dietary restrictions are always more complicated).
- re the hug/kiss paralegal, again, halacha pretty much comes down to cost/benefit analysis (except for the big 3), and kissing/hugging is a real big line that we generally wont give up on. i have had that from my secretary, and i told her i just cant do that and she took it well (because i give her money).

I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, im saying after i thought about it and consulted with my swammy, i came out this way and went machmir on what i consider might be a chillul hashem. sorry if i implied otherwise.

[henche]

A discussion for another day.

Today!

[Achas Veachas]

Can someone post the definition?

This boils down to the Rebbe's worldview I was alluding to earlier. Parnassah comes from Hashem, the only reason we need to work is because HASHEM told us to (וברכך ה' בכל אדר תעשה, ששת ימים תעבוד ועשית כל מלאכתך), so the work we do is not what gives is our Parnasah it's just a too (Keli) Hashem uses to give it to us through, sort of life when a tree is chopped down you don't say "look at that axe, it really did a fine job with that one" rather you realize it was the lumberjack who chopped the tree using the axe as a tool.

To say that lowering your spiritual standards will help with your Parnassah is ascribing more importance to the tool than to Hashem.

[henche]

This boils down to the Rebbe's worldview I was alluding to earlier. Parnassah comes from Hashem, the only reason we need to work is because HASHEM told us to (וברכך ה' בכל אדר תעשה, ששת ימים תעבוד ועשית כל מלאכתך), so the work we do is not what gives is our Parnasah it's just a too (Keli) Hashem uses to give it to us through, sort of life when a tree is chopped down you don't say "look at that axe, it really did a fine job with that one" rather you realize it was the lumberjack who chopped the tree using the axe as a tool.

To say that lowering your spiritual standards will help with your Parnassah is ascribing more importance to the tool than to Hashem.

Thanks. So you are using "anti keli" to describe a theory inconsistent with the rebbe's?

(Also, I like that approach)

[CS91]

You can tell that most of the people on this thread are lawyers. Only a brief break in activity, between the hours of 3am and 5am. 

[Achas Veachas]

Thanks. So you are using "anti keli" to describe a theory inconsistent with the rebbe's?

(Also, I like that approach)

i didn't use anti-keli, what I'm assuming Dan meant is something that can take away from your Parnassah (a Keli is a tool used to give someone Parnassah, an anti-Keli would be a wrench that gets stuck in the way).

[thaber]

u make a pretty good point re the baker case, except that there there is no animus assumed, as opposed to the no handshake, which sometimes may lead to more animus (altz mysogeny and/or basic social requirements, dietary restrictions are always more complicated).
- re the hug/kiss paralegal, again, halacha pretty much comes down to cost/benefit analysis (except for the big 3), and kissing/hugging is a real big line that we generally wont give up on. i have had that from my secretary, and i told her i just cant do that and she took it well (because i give her money).

I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, im saying after i thought about it and consulted with my swammy, i came out this way and went machmir on what i consider might be a chillul hashem. sorry if i implied otherwise.

Points granted.
But perhaps your secretary would have understood even if she wasn't your secretary and even if it was just a handshake? Just throwing it out there,  obviously I have no idea.

[aygart]

What is anti keli

[Achas Veachas]

What is anti keli

i didn't use anti-keli, what I'm assuming Dan meant is something that can take away from your Parnassah (a Keli is a tool used to give someone Parnassah, an anti-Keli would be a wrench that gets stuck in the way).

[jj1000]

What is anti keli

It was explained by achas a bit.

A keli is something we do to form a vessel for G-ds blessing. Such as doing his mitzvos getting a job etc.

So an anti keli would be not looking for work if you are unemployed, or eating treif etc.

What Dan implied was taking off ones yalmuka would probably also be an anti keli, meaning doing not what hashem wants, but in this case people are saying that taking off the yalmuka gives more parnasa, so this apparent anti keli is actually a keli for more money...

Now the question is what else falls into this category, if we eat our co-workers or boss's cupcake do we also make more money, and therefore it is allowed according to halacha...

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Now the question is what else falls into this category, if we eat our co-workers or boss's cupcake do we also make more money, and therefore it is allowed according to halacha...

Are you being serious?

[Achas Veachas]

Are you being serious?

He is taking the argument that you can take your Kippah off for business a bit further.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

He is taking the argument that you can take your Kippah off for business a bit further.

He sure did.

[skyguy918]

Disagree. I'm simply raising the bar.  If you see a guy with a yarlmuke in Legal Sea Food with 2 other lawyers, 99 times out of 100 he's not eating treif.  If you see a guy in a yarlmuke sitting alone eating a big plate of ribs at an out of the way Texas BBQ, 99 times out of 100 he's eating treif.

Who cares what things you do specifically for what purposes--the main question is what the percentages are, and what normal people watching you will assume.

Is that really the question? Is that something you've come to from learning the sugya in depth? /sarcasm

[henche]

Is that really the question? Is that something you've come to from learning the sugya in depth? /sarcasm

Fair point, I'm talking from my boich.

But my boich is having trouble understanding any other definition. And the "remove the yarlmuke" definition seems as arbitrary as a "remove the factor most having to do with the color green" definition.

[zale]

Wow. Just wow. I have no idea WTF your problem is, but there is clearly something wrong with you. While most people here are having a mature discussion, you don't stop putting people who have differing opinions down. People that grow up in MO homes don't always wear yamulkas? Since when? Do you even realize how ridiculous of a statement that is? Get off your high horse and take your crap elsewhere. Just because someone doesn't dress the way that you do or have the same exact opinions that you do doesn't give you the right to put them down. And yes, I reread what I just wrote before posting it, and tried toning it down a bit, but there were no two ways about it.

Must've hit a raw nerve there. It's alright, I'll excuse you for your lack of comprehension due to the late hour of your post.

Nowhere did I state that ALL people who grow up in MO homes sometimes don't wear Yarmulkes. I stated that SOME people from MO homes sometimes don't wear Yarmulkes. That is a FACT. I know plenty of MO families like this, including some relatives. It's too bad that this FACT hurts your feelings. (Not sure why it does though.)

Everyone on this thread has a right to their opinion, something which you clearly don't believe in. You want to state your opinion, but you refuse to hear the opinion of others. There are those that are arguing that a man should take off his Yarmulke at work, and that there is a Heter for this, and I am arguing that for someone who grew up in a Heimishe household, that Heter might have a technical basis, but is still Prikas Ol nontheless.

[Ergel]

Are you being serious?

No.
It was a reductio ad absurdum