Law School

[zale]

If you see a guy in a yarmulka in a brothel, he just came in to get change for the meter.

lol 

Bill O'reilly once interviewed Jimmy Mcmillan ("Rent is too damn high!") about welfare recipients who withdraw money from ATM's to use at strip clubs. Here is part of a transcript:

O'REILLY: All right, so Mr. McMillan "The New York Post" found out that you know strip clubs, liquor stores, some gambling establishments they were using the card in there. That's not good.

JIMMY MCMILLAN, CANDIDATE FOR NYC MAYOR: Well ATM machine across the street. The ATM machine where I went to doesn't work. So ironically it's in the strip club. But you can't assume that a person withdrawing money from an ATM machine is spending it in a strip club.

O'REILLY: I don't know -- I don't know if you can assume it but why would you go into a strip club when there are ATM machines everywhere. Why wouldn't you go to a Dunkin' Donuts. I mean come on.

MCMILLAN: Temporarily out of service, it could have all sorts of fees. You have $1.75 at some machines and also $2.50. So you might, you wouldn't want to go to one that's $2.50 you try to find the cheapest one.

O'REILLY: Do you think -- really seriously do you think somebody is going to walk into a strip club just because they want to get some of their welfare benefits and then walk out? I mean, come on?

MCMILLAN: Well, I'm a former stripper.

[shiframeir]

what's the clash?

i thought we went through this. just to throw a few at the dartboard kinda out of order: Malbin pnei chaveiro (deoraisa on jews, so if girl is a jew and gets embarassed bc u refuse to shake her hand for some strange excuse that sounds hard to believe, its there; presumably also applicable to goyim on some level at the very least); darkei shalom (need to bend our rules all the time in many varian halachos to keep peace with goyim so we dont grow their animosity and lead to danger, and even in us this can have effects, peeps will vote against religious rules (shechita/milah) or israel, putting peeps in danger); basic kavod habriyos is a factor in many halachos so respected people are permitted/excepted from certain rules; deracheha dachei noam (see several places in shas such as gitin 59 (where the gemara says darchei shalom is "deoraisah", and "the whole torah itself is for darchei shalom"), succa 32, yevamos 87); vasisa hatov vehayashar as explained as a positive command by Ramban/similar idea for kedoshim tehiyu, not to be a blind follower of halacha while being uncouth; pirkei avos (not really halachic but important) including r chanina ben dosa, if the spirit of the briyos are pleased by u, hashem is pleased by u. and im sure there is much more i dont have on the top of my head.
when u have a question of what to do in terms of halacha, esp one that affect others, just looking at the book is never enough, our job is to weigh all factors, and when we are nogea bedavar, ask someone knowledgeable and thoughtful enough to look at it from all sides and consider all aspects of torah as they apply to the specific situation. 

I'm assuming at least someone has asked (or wondered in their head) why you suddenly stopped shaving (or trimming, not sure what you usually have). It is also very possible that they have heard of sfira/3 weeks and know that for work, one is allowed to shave. They may know this by looking at other co-workers who are frum and are still clean shaven for example. Do you not think that there is a slight chance that a partner perhaps would get upset at you because you walk into a client's meeting or into court with a messy beard when they know that in reality, you are allowed to shave?

Again, just asking an innocent question because before law school I was working at a big 4 and during the 3 weeks, a non-jew asked me how come I (along with 99% of the other frum accountants at the firm) were allowed to shave but one specific individual wasn't. I was honestly stumped and didn't know how to respond. So again, not attacking at all, and you're of course entitled to do whatever makes you the most comfortable.

I am in a special situation being the only yarmulke at my firm, and there are only a couple other shabbos observers (and old school guy who started at big law in the 70s and a more yct/conservative-side guy who keeps shabbos and some other stuff but no yarmulke). bc i do m&a which has crazy hours (i'm on track for 3000+) and the firm generally bends over to keep me bc im now very valuable, i can get away with a lot and people never seriously mess with me, assuming im on my 58th hour with no sleep.  i'll get  a joke from a partner every once in a while about why i dress/groom worse than most paralegals (this is sad but true), but i usually explain it off that i am just working too hard and at least need to be a bit comfortable/dont have time for grooming.  i then say i'll groom better when i'm partner and have some money and that usually shuts them up That said, i am shaving tomorrow morning (dont want to overdo it).

I can't believe that one who grows up wearing a Yarmulke from age three, and has never stepped outside of his bedroom without one since, would actually seek out a Heter to take it off. It's פּריקת עול of the highest order. (Of course, once you go crying to a Rav, (especially a lenient Rav,) the Rav will have no choice but to find an obscure Heter for you. The mere fact that you went to the Rav to ask for the Heter is פּריקת עול.

R Zale, not everyone believes what you believe, and both sides have what to rely on. its not helpful to imply that what other peeps are doing is wrong, instead of understanding what their basis is. yarmulke's are a relatively new thing in judaism, and to the extent they were accepted as a minhag yisroel, reasonable exceptions were always there. do u think wearing a yarmulke actually reminds everyone of the creator every minute and makes a tangible difference in their avodas hashem? from a more litvish modox perspective, we wear it now because we have been wearing it, and if rov yisroel stopped wearing it, we would probably stop. even today many extremely frum Sephardim do not wear regularly. 

[CS91]

It's also one thing if a guy grows up in a MO family where sometimes they wear Yarmulke's and sometimes not.

Wow. Just wow. I have no idea WTF your problem is, but there is clearly something wrong with you. While most people here are having a mature discussion, you don't stop putting people who have differing opinions down. People that grow up in MO homes don't always wear yamulkas? Since when? Do you even realize how ridiculous of a statement that is? Get off your high horse and take your crap elsewhere. Just because someone doesn't dress the way that you do or have the same exact opinions that you do doesn't give you the right to put them down. And yes, I reread what I just wrote before posting it, and tried toning it down a bit, but there were no two ways about it.

[12HRS]

I just can't help believe that a person with 100% emunah would ever take off his head covering... especially to get a job.

+1

I can't believe that one who grows up wearing a Yarmulke from age three, and has never stepped outside of his bedroom without one since, would actually seek out a Heter to take it off. It's פּריקת עול of the highest order. (Of course, once you go crying to a Rav, (especially a lenient Rav,) the Rav will have no choice but to find an obscure Heter for you. The mere fact that you went to the Rav to ask for the Heter is פּריקת עול.

Like I stated earlier, it's one thing if the guy is a Ba'al Teshuva and is working his way UP the ladder, but is just not ready to wear a Yarmulke at work yet. It's also one thing if a guy grows up in a MO family where sometimes they wear Yarmulke's and sometimes not. It's another thing for someone who grew up wearing a Yarmulke their entire life to then take it off because they believe that it might increase their chances to earn more money.

If someone had 100% emunah they wouldn't be working either. the fact that a person is honest with the level he is on is why he asks a shaila.

Oh and just because someone grew up from the age of 3 wearing a kippah in a frum environment where its normal does not mean that he ever got to the level needed to be comfortable wearing a kippah in an office environment.

[Freddie]

If someone had 100% emunah they wouldn't be working either. the fact that a person is honest with the level he is on is why he asks a shaila.

Oh and just because someone grew up from the age of 3 wearing a kippah in a frum environment where its normal does not mean that he ever got to the level needed to be comfortable wearing a kippah in an office environment.

What? Edit your post while you still have time.

[reed]

I think with all the terrible things that fiena yidden end up in the news for, it is now a kiddush hashem NOT to wear a yamukah. Show the world that were not diffrent because how we dress or look, but rather by how we act.

[12HRS]

What? Edit your post while you still have time.

why

[yakrot]

I think with all the terrible things that fiena yidden end up in the news for, it is now a kiddush hashem NOT to wear a yamukah. Show the world that were not diffrent because how we dress or look, but rather by how we act.

Maybe smicha should be necessary in order to earn the right to wear a yarmulka...

[reed]

Maybe smicha should be necessary in order to earn the right to wear a yarmulka...

I don't think smichas the answer. More along the lines of a total revamp of the frum education system. But I suppose that's a whole nother thread......

[JoeCha]

It all boils down to the one single question:

Moving for law school?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

It all boils down to the one single question:

Moving for law school?

After reading the last few pages I would have never guessed that was the question. 

[thaber]

i thought we went through this. just to throw a few at the dartboard kinda out of order: Malbin pnei chaveiro (deoraisa on jews, so if girl is a jew and gets embarassed bc u refuse to shake her hand for some strange excuse that sounds hard to believe, its there; presumably also applicable to goyim on some level at the very least); darkei shalom (need to bend our rules all the time in many varian halachos to keep peace with goyim so we dont grow their animosity and lead to danger, and even in us this can have effects, peeps will vote against religious rules (shechita/milah) or israel, putting peeps in danger); basic kavod habriyos is a factor in many halachos so respected people are permitted/excepted from certain rules; deracheha dachei noam (see several places in shas such as gitin 59 (where the gemara says darchei shalom is "deoraisah", and "the whole torah itself is for darchei shalom"), succa 32, yevamos 87); vasisa hatov vehayashar as explained as a positive command by Ramban/similar idea for kedoshim tehiyu, not to be a blind follower of halacha while being uncouth; pirkei avos (not really halachic but important) including r chanina ben dosa, if the spirit of the briyos are pleased by u, hashem is pleased by u. and im sure there is much more i dont have on the top of my head.

Let's take a different scenario for a second, that isn't so contentious, and I actually had yesterday. A co worker is an avid baker, and she offered me, all excited, a piece of something she had baked.
Her, all excited, in front of several others: Want to try a piece of this cake I made, it's really good, and I never made it before
Me: I'd love to, but I'm restricted to kosher. But it looks awesome!
Her, very deflated and confused: but cake doesn't have to be kosher?
Me: Actually it does
Her: well let me tell you what i put in, just...
and so on.
As gracefully as possible I extricated myself and hopefully no lingering hard feelings.
Now, I don't think anyone here would tell me that I should have had a bite, even though:
Malbin pnei chaveiro
darkei shalom
kavod habriyos
deracheah darkei noam
hedoshim tihyu
ruach habrios nocha heyemeno
etc.
And I could make the argument that there wasn't more than an issur derabannan, especially if there were no overtly non kosher ingredients. for gelatin you can be meikel. etc.
Now, on to another case. You're a lawyer in Santa Monica (Silicon Beach) and the office has a informal atmosphere. Your attractive paralegal says good morning by throwing her arms around you and giving you a peck on the cheek. In those circles that would be equivalent to a warm handshake in NY. Same as shaking hands? I think not, even though all the above 'clashes' apply.
Those considerations are considerations that were applied by Chazal in extenuating circumstances, and yes, occasionally even on a deroysa. but if you peruse centuries of responsa they weren't willy nilly applied to every scenario where the argument could be made.
Again, I'm not coming to knock anybody, or say anyone's doing the wrong thing. It's a very difficult call each time. But to say that one who is machmir is wrong is also not right.

[thaber]

After reading the last few pages I would have never guessed that was the question. 

We'll get there soon

[thaber]

I think with all the terrible things that fiena yidden end up in the news for, it is now a kiddush hashem NOT to wear a yamukah. Show the world that were not diffrent because how we dress or look, but rather by how we act.

That's the throw in the towel perspective. IMO the correct thing to do is wear a yarmulka and make a kiddush Hashem. but I must be missing something because I thought that was obvious.

[ChaimMoskowitz]

We'll get there soon

Please don't. I enjoyed your last post. You can really be put into some awkward situations.

[CS91]

Your attractive paralegal says good morning by throwing her arms around you and giving you a peck on the cheek.

You're watching too much Suits 

[thaber]

Yes, I don't get that one.  I mean, I believe you that poskim say it, but I just don't hear it too well.

Sure, if the only data points you have are (a) most people go to restaurants to eat their food, and (b), this person is in the restaurant, then the most logical conclusion is that this person is eating the food.  But that isn't all the data you have.

If the only data you have is that (a) most cars don't have electric motors, and (b) this is a car, then the most logical conclusion is that this car does not have an electric motor.  But if I told you another data point, that (c) this car has a decal that says Toyota Prius, and that (d) most cars that say Toyota Prius have electric motors, then you should consider all 4 factors together and you should conclude that this car probably has an electric motor, even though most cars don't. 

So in my case, you should add a third and fourth data point that (c) I am wearing a yarlmuke, and (d) most people who wear yarlmukes don't eat treif. 

I mean, once you're only going to pick certain data points, I will note to you that most people who fly first class also eat the food--which is treif.  But why go that far? Most people who cross the street eat treif.  Most people who pick their nose also eat treif. Most people who shop at Stop & Shop buy treif food there. Most people who buy coffee at Starbucks also buy pastries that are treif.  Most people who go to the zoo on chol hamoed pesach buy the goat food for the petting zoo which is chometz.  Most people who go to baseball games buy hot dogs. 

Maris ayin--what people see.  You should look at what you are doing through the eyes of the people who will actually see you and consider if they will think you are doing something wrong, based on all the things they will see. 

I don't know any other way to understand it.

This is really a whole different sugya. Reb Moshe explains it beautifully in several places (OC 2:40, OC 4:82, OC 1:96) that there is maaris ayin and chashad. there can be maaris ayin even if there is no chashad. If you're interested it's worth going through the sugya.

[thaber]

You're watching too much Suits 

to be honest, I watched the first few episodes, but then it got too soap opera'ish for me. I don't have patience for that stuff.

[thaber]

Please don't. I enjoyed your last post. You can really be put into some awkward situations.

Can you come and do some sensitivity training in my office?

[ChaimMoskowitz]

Can you come and do some sensitivity training in my office?

I don't think that is the issue. Have them hang out on DDF a few hours each day. They will have a better understanding.