Law School

[hvaces42]

Biglaw is over over over-rated. 1800-2000 billable hours. I never wanted  a job in a big firm. I worked for a BIG firm before i graduated as a para for 5 years. So i saw both sides.

[hvaces42]

hmmm

billable hours works out to spending more than 70 hours a week in the office.

[AJK]

Biglaw is over over over-rated. 1800-2000 billable hours. I never wanted  a job in a big firm. I worked for a BIG firm before i graduated as a para for 5 years. So i saw both sides.

Tell that to the person who just graduated law school and is trying to service $175,000 in debt.

[EJB]

Tell that to the person who just graduated law school and is trying to service $175,000 in debt.

You could be like Kang and enslave yourself to NYS...

[CS91]

Tell that to the person who just graduated law school and is trying to service $175,000 in debt.

I don't think that the only reason for wanting big law is debt and that once it's paid, people plan on leaving. I've always wanted to do big law and will be starting in October. Thank G-d won't have that much debt to pay off, but plan/hope to stay at a firm for my whole career.

My personal reason for wanting to do so – there aren't that many jobs out there that pay enough to support a Jewish lifestyle (I don't want to have to ask for tuition breaks) and I think that it will be intellectually stimulating and won't get boring after a few years.

[hvaces42]

Tell that to the person who just graduated law school and is trying to service $175,000 in debt.

The business of law is a bad business model. You will make a living. Big law firm life is not made for frum lawyers. 14 hour days 6 days a week take a toll. Unless you are at a furm like Fried Frank where frum lawyers seem to make it, your not gonna make partner in most big firms. Anyone that asks me about law school gets the bad business model speech. Unless you have clients that you can invest with or who will take you along for the ride either when they go big as GC or public its probably not the best idea to count on making it big as a lawyer.

[CS91]

Big law firm life is not made for frum lawyers.

You can make the argument that being frum makes it difficult to succeed at almost any prestigious job. There are plenty of successful frum lawyers, bankers, doctors, etc. If you're smart and you care to put in the work, I don't think you're chances are any worse than the average non-Jew.

[tdb]

I tell people when they aske me about going to law school  that in my opinion they are better off in the long run working for a real estate company for free for 3 years than going to law school.  They will get a better education with more potential earning power and no tuition costs.

[jj1000]

No question I think most lawyer agree if you don't want to be  a lawyer than don't.

If it's your parents forcing you to do it to have a "real profession" you will hate it, and it's not worth it.

[good sam]

Biglaw is over over over-rated. 1800-2000 billable hours. I never wanted  a job in a big firm. I worked for a BIG firm before i graduated as a para for 5 years. So i saw both sides.

You're a lawyer? I figured you were in heating and cooling

[hvaces42]

You can make the argument that being frum makes it difficult to succeed at almost any prestigious job. There are plenty of successful frum lawyers, bankers, doctors, etc. If you're smart and you care to put in the work, I don't think you're chances are any worse than the average non-Jew.

Take it from someone wh lived that culture for 5 years at the largest firm in the world. It makes family life hell. You leave home on Motzei Shabbos to get in the hours you missed friday. Spend the night at the office so you can have a few hours with the family on Sunday. Monday to Thursday its 8am-10pm black car home. Friday its home right at the zman. Its delusional to think you can BILL 60 hours a week without spending at least 70 in the office and you need to bill that much because of shabbos and Yom Tov and vacation and sick days.

There is a dearth of frum equity partners in big law firms. Most frum lawyers either end up as Of Counsel or contract partners at best.

[hvaces42]

You're a lawyer? I figured you were in heating and cooling

Hatzolah Volunteer Ambulance Corps...HVAC

[AJK]

I don't think that the only reason for wanting big law is debt and that once it's paid, people plan on leaving. I've always wanted to do big law and will be starting in October. Thank G-d won't have that much debt to pay off, but plan/hope to stay at a firm for my whole career.

My personal reason for wanting to do so – there aren't that many jobs out there that pay enough to support a Jewish lifestyle (I don't want to have to ask for tuition breaks) and I think that it will be intellectually stimulating and won't get boring after a few years.

Of course it's not the *only* reason.  The primary reason though, whether it's for servicing debt or for supporting a Jewish family, is for the money. Simple as that.

The business of law is a bad business model. You will make a living. Big law firm life is not made for frum lawyers. 14 hour days 6 days a week take a toll. Unless you are at a furm like Fried Frank where frum lawyers seem to make it, your not gonna make partner in most big firms. Anyone that asks me about law school gets the bad business model speech. Unless you have clients that you can invest with or who will take you along for the ride either when they go big as GC or public its probably not the best idea to count on making it big as a lawyer.

Frum lawyers make it in more big firms than just Fried Frank.

In any event, you side-stepped my comment: Big law is the *only* way in the short term to effectively service nearly $200K in debt if you want any prayer of getting out from underneath the mountain before you can collect SS, notwithstanding your allegation that big law "is over over over-rated."

[AJK]

Take it from someone wh lived that culture for 5 years at the largest firm in the world. It makes family life hell. You leave home on Motzei Shabbos to get in the hours you missed friday. Spend the night at the office so you can have a few hours with the family on Sunday. Monday to Thursday its 8am-10pm black car home. Friday its home right at the zman. Its delusional to think you can BILL 60 hours a week without spending at least 70 in the office and you need to bill that much because of shabbos and Yom Tov and vacation and sick days.

There is a dearth of frum equity partners in big law firms. Most frum lawyers either end up as Of Counsel or contract partners at best.

Sorry, but not all big firms are like that. Seems like you had a bad experience, which can and does happen.

[hvaces42]

Sorry, but not all big firms are like that. Seems like you had a bad experience, which can and does happen.

You are correct about teh debt service although public service also allows for debt forgiveness as well. I can only say what i saw at the firm and what my friends and colleagues told me when they were junior associates. Any frum person I know that has been at a big firm hasnt stayed on as partner...except at Fried Frank. 

[Ergel]

Biglaw is over over over-rated. 1800-2000 billable hours. I never wanted  a job in a big firm. I worked for a BIG firm before i graduated as a para for 5 years. So i saw both sides.

I'm confused. Isn't your life a 'pathetic existence'? You could have made more money by working more?

[jj1000]

I'm confused. Isn't your life a 'pathetic existence'? You could have made more money by working more?

+1. Can't have it both ways.

[hvaces42]

I'm confused. Isn't your life a 'pathetic existence'? You could have made more money by working more?

I think you need to read that post again. And apologize while youre at it too. It was an observation about one individual...who i know personally and lives a pathetic existence.

[hvaces42]

+1. Can't have it both ways.

And i am not an advocate of working more hours for the same pay. A forst year lawyer makes $75-$100 an hour before taxes. But is earning a fixed salary no matter how many hours he works. I advocate working an honest job for as long as you can/feel you need to work. If that means a govt job fine. But retiring at age 55 with skills that can be used to bolster a much nicer retirement at age 60, 65, 70 without have any aspirations or goals other than to get up another day and do the same old thing until death comes knocking is pretty pathetic.

[AJK]

I'm sorry, but your comments drip with resentment and judgment. And reek to high heavens of entitlement.

How can you pass judgment on someone whose priorities are different from yours? Someone who wishes to take a path that rewards him or her in a manner different from the one you afford any respect does not make that path any less righteous; it just makes it different from yours.

The air down here with the hoi polloi is just as breathable. Give it a try sometime, my friend.