Law School

[kaman]

Dentists who make that much are crooks (i.e. over prescribing fancier procedures). Have you seen the reimbursements on standard dental procedures on regular dental insurance? I study them and to me they seem barely enough to cover overhead.

I know the better dentists don't take insurance, but is there really a steady population of non-insurance people?

[churnbabychurn]

I know the better dentists don't take insurance, but is there really a steady population of non-insurance people?

Definitely. Very common to not have dental insurance.

[skyguy918]

So lets get ancedotal. My dentist, my endodontist, my periodontist, my kids pediatric dentist (closed to new patients), my kids orthodontist and his partner my neighbors brother in law who is a pediatric dentist (closed to new patients), all of them separate people, make 500k and above. So it may be ancedotal but every one that i know except my friend who works in a public health clinic as a dentist making "only" 200k is making above the average in Brooklyn.

Each of those (except for the neighbors brother in law, which I can probably squeeze into the following argument as well) are people that you know because they are successful dentists with affluent patients (I'm just assuming that based on you being a client - probably a fair assumption). That's what you call a highly biased sampling. A student who decides to become a dentist doesn't automatically end up as one of those people just because they graduate dental school - or even just because they 'work hard', as you put it. They may end up in salaried jobs that pay a whole lot less. Or they may end up in private practice, but not able to succesfully draw the quantity (or quality, ie rich in this context) of clients necessary to make big money.

[skyguy918]

Definitely. Very common to not have dental insurance.

Not sure if those patients will always end up bringing in more money though. They're probably a lot more likely to examine whether they truly need a procedure if they're paying out of pocket.

[hvaces42]

There is a fair mix of insurance accepting and cash only in that sampling. I still know that Dentists make more than lawyers without a highly biased sampling. Its a fact, google average salaries notwithstanding. Everyone needs to see a doctor and a dentist at some point in their lives. Not everyone needs a lawyer. That alone should be obvious.

To all those that say that dentists are crooks that overbill insurance... http://abovethelaw.com/2013/03/overbilling-gone-wild-paying-the-dla-piper-plus-interesting-lateral-moves-into-and-out-of-dla/ (full disclosure: I used to work there as a Para). Try billing in 6 min increments and tell me youre meticulous and no client was overbilled. 

[kaman]

To all those that say that dentists are crooks that overbill insurance...

not saying they overbill insurance. Insurance has negotiated rates for procedures. I am saying that they prescribe procedures that aren't necessarily needed as there are certain procedures that are more profitable. This inflicts pain on patients that otherwise would not have had.

It is a fact that dentists do this. I have seen some with my own eyes. Than again, I think it is the fault of the system that they get reimbursed very little for standard procedures. Hard to make a living as an honest dentist.

some standard reimbursements rates:

standard cleaning/check up- about $60. This involves at least 30 minutes of work, if the dentist is good he can shove off some of this on a hygienist and only spend 10 minutes or so with patient. but still, not a highly profitable endeavor.

cavity- about 70 dollar insurance reimbursement. Requires 2 people for 30 minutes to do the procedure (dentist + assistant). Again, not making much money for that...

unless you doing crowns/root canals not making much. even those, you need to prescribe that alot

[kaman]

To each their own. I personally wouldn't. And no, I'm not practicing yet, but I am fully aware of what I am getting myself into and I understand that working long hours is what it takes to support a frum family and be comfortable.

Sad but 300K doesn't make you more comfortable than 150K, assuming you have 4 kids or so in yeshiva. 150K is on scholarship, 300K isn't. (that was the whole point of the 200K-300K chump blog).

You have to make partner for it to really make a dent. what % of biglaw does that?

[henche]

Sad but 300K doesn't make you more comfortable than 150K, assuming you have 4 kids or so in yeshiva. 150K is on scholarship, 300K isn't. (that was the whole point of the 200K-300K chump blog).

You have to make partner for it to really make a dent. what % of biglaw does that?

Make partner? chas v'shalom.

[CS91]

Sad but 300K doesn't make you more comfortable than 150K, assuming you have 4 kids or so in yeshiva. 150K is on scholarship, 300K isn't. (that was the whole point of the 200K-300K chump blog).

Personally, I'd rather not have to ask for tuition breaks. If I have the capability of earning 300k and paying full tuition, I'd rather work so that I can pay full tuition and instead let the tuition break go to the person that really needs it.

[hvaces42]

Personally, I'd rather not have to ask for tuition breaks. If I have the capability of earning 300k and paying full tuition, I'd rather work so that I can pay full tuition and instead let the tuition break go to the person that really needs it.

4 kids 10-15k+++ non-deductible tuition each. Lets see when youre making that kind of money.

Real dreamers. Not a clue what the real world is about. 

Can we start rounding out the optimum package for a frum family? So far I've heard biglaw and paying full tuition. Lets hear what kind of car you need to drive, what your housing and food expense will be. Taxes. Student loans.

[CS1]

Personally, I'd rather not have to ask for tuition breaks. If I have the capability of earning 300k and paying full tuition,
I'd rather work so that I can pay full tuition and instead let the tuition break go to the person that really needs it.

+1
That's really great of you to say. It's rare....  Thank you from the rest of us... and from the teachers who don't break near 6 figures....

[kaman]

+1
That's really great of you to say. It's rare....  Thank you from the rest of us... and from the teachers who don't break near 6 figures....

This is clearly the wave of the future when someone making 150K-275K (notice how they mess over 300K salaries) is not even considered to be taking a tuition break :

http://www.jkha.org/Yesodot

This has been adopted at many schools and is seen as the new wave in yeshiva education affordability. All you have to do is submit your AGI  number and you are done with it... no more full on means testing (meals, vacations, cars, etc..) would you really feel bad doing that? Do I need to work an extra 30 hours a week just to pay an unreasonable figure?

[henche]

Just to say it, it really helps if you alter bochur for a while before you get married, and are making biglaw bucks and paying down all your debt before your first kid hits playgroup.

NASI can take a tuition bill and shove it up their nose.

[CS91]

4 kids 10-15k+++ non-deductible tuition each. Lets see when youre making that kind of money.

Real dreamers. Not a clue what the real world is about. 

Can we start rounding out the optimum package for a frum family? So far I've heard biglaw and paying full tuition. Lets hear what kind of car you need to drive, what your housing and food expense will be. Taxes. Student loans.

So I'm a dreamer and have no clue what the world is about because I'm not constantly looking to cut corners and nickel and dime everyone that ever sends me an invoice? Interesting.

And you're wrong, I know exactly what it's like to live on a strict, small budget. I've been doing it for several years and personally, I think it detracts from my enjoyment of life. I didn't enjoy asking my Shul if I can have a break on membership because I couldn't afford to pay full since I was in school. Plus, once I can afford it, why wouldn't I want to pay full membership or tuition? Am I not benefitting from the Shul/school that they deserve to be compensated? The money has to come from somewhere.

+1
That's really great of you to say. It's rare....  Thank you from the rest of us... and from the teachers who don't break near 6 figures....

Thank you. It's a breathe of fresh air to get a non-cynical response once in a while.

[henche]

It's not frum to pay shul membership. 

[hvaces42]

You probably thought Bernie Sanders' economic plan was viable too. Its one thing to be altruistic its another to delude yourself into thinking that what you're saying is reality. You havent practiced yet. Let reality set in before you commit to things.

[kaman]

So I'm a dreamer and have no clue what the world is about because I'm not constantly looking to cut corners and nickel and dime everyone that ever sends me an invoice? Interesting.

And you're wrong, I know exactly what it's like to live on a strict, small budget. I've been doing it for several years and personally, I think it detracts from my enjoyment of life. I didn't enjoy asking my Shul if I can have a break on membership because I couldn't afford to pay full since I was in school. Plus, once I can afford it, why wouldn't I want to pay full membership or tuition? Am I not benefitting from the Shul/school that they deserve to be compensated? The money has to come from somewhere.
Thank you. It's a breathe of fresh air to get a non-cynical response once in a while.

I think his point was that on 300K and 4-5 kids in yeshiva, aint that comfortable anymore if living in NJ and NY and paying those house prices and commuting and Tax. Would be interesting for someone to develop a hypothetical budget...

[hvaces42]

It's not frum to pay shul membership.

Of course not. You have to show off what a big shot you are when you buy aliyos and then stiff the shul when it comes time to pony up the cash.

[hvaces42]

Youre naiveté is obvious when it comes to school tuition. Its not cynical to say that a school run by private individuals is a business. They will charge what the market can bear and make accommodations (read: negotiate) when the market cannot bear the charges they demand. So asking for a break is like asking your title company to take some charges off your clients bill. The title company makes a few dollars less and that doesnt make you a bad person for negotiating.

[hvaces42]

I publicly apologize if i offended anyone including CS91