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Law school exams for yeshiva guys 101, by henche
1. Read the story. 
2. Write down all the taynas that anyone might have, and what taynas the other guy might have back, and what the halacha probably is. 
3. Hit "submit"
4. Get a job.
5. Never see your family again!!!!!!!

http://www.top-law-schools.com/success-in-law-school.html
« Last edited by jj1000 on September 15, 2016, 08:19:54 AM »

Author Topic: Law School  (Read 227598 times)

Offline Cls2020

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1770 on: February 26, 2017, 01:02:47 PM »
Thanks for the response!
Law is something that I think I would find interesting and stimulating and I would definitely put in any work that is required of me. I think I would work very hard to be as successful as I can be.  But being realistic as a frum Jew  I know my chances of making partner are probably somewhat less than if I wasn't religious. I am OK with that and I will take my chances. However, I have spoken to lawyers who have mentioned to me that once you have the big law on your resume there are many other opportunities that are open to you with better hours like you mentioned. So my question was  is it a environment  that they throw out associates or do you have opportunities to leave on your own terms?

Offline jj1000

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1771 on: February 26, 2017, 01:08:56 PM »
Thanks for the response!
Law is something that I think I would find interesting and stimulating and I would definitely put in any work that is required of me. I think I would work very hard to be as successful as I can be.  But being realistic as a frum Jew  I know my chances of making partner are probably somewhat less than if I wasn't religious. I am OK with that and I will take my chances. However, I have spoken to lawyers who have mentioned to me that once you have the big law on your resume there are many other opportunities that are open to you with better hours like you mentioned. So my question was  is it a environment  that they throw out associates or do you have opportunities to leave on your own terms?
They aren't firing associates if that's what your asking. It's just a natural transition when they stop increasing your pay and you work the same hours. Basically after 8 years you either make partner or you keep working with no raise which I think is when most people leave if they didn't already...
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Re: Law School
« Reply #1772 on: February 26, 2017, 01:21:18 PM »
They aren't firing associates if that's what your asking. It's just a natural transition when they stop increasing your pay and you work the same hours. Basically after 8 years you either make partner or you keep working with no raise which I think is when most people leave if they didn't already...
But do opportunities tend to arise in big law to switch out?

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1773 on: February 26, 2017, 02:28:35 PM »
But do opportunities tend to arise in big law to switch out?
I'm sure it depends on the person their connections and area of law.
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Re: Law School
« Reply #1774 on: February 26, 2017, 02:31:59 PM »
I'm sure it depends on the person their connections and area of law.
Ok thanks!

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1775 on: February 26, 2017, 02:47:11 PM »
Anyways, I'm a BTL guy starting Columbia this year and as I was reading through I noticed that a few times people mentioned that after a few years you have to transition out of BigLaw, and how that is mostly inevitable and difficult. Can I ask why that is? Even though I assuredly won't make partner, why wouldn't a firm want to keep me as long as I am useful until I am able to leave on my terms?
R' JJ's right as to many law firms, but there are more than a handful that dont follow the classic biglaw rules but still pay market. just need to really discriminate and figure out which firm fits your plan. I went to a smaller biglaw place where people are generally more normal/less gunners and we are happy to have and keep people who do good work and make clients happy, even if they dont bring in new business. counsel positions make more than associates, and grow each year basically in line with the associate raise scale, but with bigger bonus opportunities and values for bringing in business (if u do). and if u are really lucky (and this is probably rare and requires special circumstances with rainmakers/imp partners loving u), u can even make equity partner without bringing in your own business, and even with a yarmulke! That will require lots of sacrifice (working all night when needed, going the extra mile for the client to make their job easier etc), but i make much more than most of my inhouse counterparts (based on equiv seniority), and they work prob 2/3s as much as i do. and i dont have a normal 9/5 and can work from home/unlimited vacations etc, being more of a hired gun without 9/5 annoying requirements that inhouse people suffer with.

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1776 on: February 26, 2017, 03:03:37 PM »
R' JJ's right as to many law firms, but there are more than a handful that dont follow the classic biglaw rules but still pay market. just need to really discriminate and figure out which firm fits your plan. I went to a smaller biglaw place where people are generally more normal/less gunners and we are happy to have and keep people who do good work and make clients happy, even if they dont bring in new business. counsel positions make more than associates, and grow each year basically in line with the associate raise scale, but with bigger bonus opportunities and values for bringing in business (if u do). and if u are really lucky (and this is probably rare and requires special circumstances with rainmakers/imp partners loving u), u can even make equity partner without bringing in your own business, and even with a yarmulke! That will require lots of sacrifice (working all night when needed, going the extra mile for the client to make their job easier etc), but i make much more than most of my inhouse counterparts (based on equiv seniority), and they work prob 2/3s as much as i do. and i dont have a normal 9/5 and can work from home/unlimited vacations etc, being more of a hired gun without 9/5 annoying requirements that inhouse people suffer with.
That sounds pretty reasonable. But is your experience more of an exception in your firm (or others), or is it something that they would allow most anyone to do provided they put it the quality work that you do?

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1777 on: February 26, 2017, 03:18:10 PM »
That sounds pretty reasonable. But is your experience more of an exception in your firm (or others), or is it something that they would allow most anyone to do provided they put it the quality work that you do?
I have had lots of crazy luck at my firm, but there are others like mine, and at worst u can move somewhere else where they will value u (depending on practice and market timing). u gotta think of yourself as a rookie looking to be a star on a sports team or something similar (except aging probably helps with experience for a longer period before drop off when u can no longer turn docs overnight). if u do good work and are willing to put in the time (sometimes at the expense of family etc), there will always be a market for u, and u just have to know that and confidently push for what u think your value is. At most non-lockstep firms there are at least a few big rainmakers who recognize when their associates/counsel make the client happy/get the client to give more work and praise. those guys usually have lots of sway in excess of their pure cut of profits and they can push those they feel they need to keep happy to get some of that gravy. To be clear, its not just quality work, its client service, doing everything to make the client's life easier and to make them (the inhouse peeps) look good to their "clients". that means helping on a nonbillable basis where needed, anticipating what they will need before they ask for it etc.

inhouse people in smaller places generally have much less leverage as a cost center, unless/until they push themselves into a stronger business role (esp with corporate lawyers, learning to negotiate all terms of a deal and understanding economics etc, i.e. quitting from the more general inhouse lawyer job) and become a senior exec, which sometimes can be hard and is a much harder "competition" when there is only 1-2 spots. In bigger places, there is a significant fear of being the first cost center and being kicked out right when u join (LIFO) bc the company needs to cut costs, which i saw with a couple friends.
 

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1778 on: February 26, 2017, 03:32:11 PM »
I have had lots of crazy luck at my firm, but there are others like mine, and at worst u can move somewhere else where they will value u (depending on practice and market timing). u gotta think of yourself as a rookie looking to be a star on a sports team or something similar (except aging probably helps with experience for a longer period before drop off when u can no longer turn docs overnight). if u do good work and are willing to put in the time (sometimes at the expense of family etc), there will always be a market for u, and u just have to know that and confidently push for what u think your value is. At most non-lockstep firms there are at least a few big rainmakers who recognize when their associates/counsel make the client happy/get the client to give more work and praise. those guys usually have lots of sway in excess of their pure cut of profits and they can push those they feel they need to keep happy to get some of that gravy. To be clear, its not just quality work, its client service, doing everything to make the client's life easier and to make them (the inhouse peeps) look good to their "clients". that means helping on a nonbillable basis where needed, anticipating what they will need before they ask for it etc.

inhouse people in smaller places generally have much less leverage as a cost center, unless/until they push themselves into a stronger business role (esp with corporate lawyers, learning to negotiate all terms of a deal and understanding economics etc, i.e. quitting from the more general inhouse lawyer job) and become a senior exec, which sometimes can be hard and is a much harder "competition" when there is only 1-2 spots. In bigger places, there is a significant fear of being the first cost center and being kicked out right when u join (LIFO) bc the company needs to cut costs, which i saw with a couple friends.
You knew all this information about your firm before you started working there? You selected to work there over other offers? (With a yamulka)

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1779 on: February 26, 2017, 03:40:57 PM »
Hey I'm in at Cls as well. Did you apply ED or you just know already you are attending?

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1780 on: February 26, 2017, 03:48:08 PM »
You knew all this information about your firm before you started working there? You selected to work there over other offers? (With a yamulka)
no. I knew they took peeps with relatively bad grades (me), i knew the people were more quirky, and i knew they had plenty of counsels so it wasnt 8 and out like other firms. I only interviewed with yarmulke, and in the end, when they gave me an offer i jumped on it (didnt get any others). Hashem did the heavy lifting.
note that your results may vary esp re yarmulke, i find that most places dont want a truly jewy jew and will reject u if u seem yeshivish, or if u get the job, partners/clients wont get close to u if u dont seem totally normal and cool and can talk some good "madda". i learned my lesson after a few interviews and switched my na-nach shlufkappel to a more modoxy black-knit.

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1781 on: February 26, 2017, 03:48:53 PM »
Both. :) You?
Well if you applied ED then you gotta go lol. I'm still waiting to here back from a few schools and really hoping Cls gives me some $$.

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1782 on: February 26, 2017, 03:53:00 PM »
R' JJ's right as to many law firms, but there are more than a handful that dont follow the classic biglaw rules but still pay market. just need to really discriminate and figure out which firm fits your plan. I went to a smaller biglaw place where people are generally more normal/less gunners and we are happy to have and keep people who do good work and make clients happy, even if they dont bring in new business. counsel positions make more than associates, and grow each year basically in line with the associate raise scale, but with bigger bonus opportunities and values for bringing in business (if u do). and if u are really lucky (and this is probably rare and requires special circumstances with rainmakers/imp partners loving u), u can even make equity partner without bringing in your own business, and even with a yarmulke! That will require lots of sacrifice (working all night when needed, going the extra mile for the client to make their job easier etc), but i make much more than most of my inhouse counterparts (based on equiv seniority), and they work prob 2/3s as much as i do. and i dont have a normal 9/5 and can work from home/unlimited vacations etc, being more of a hired gun without 9/5 annoying requirements that inhouse people suffer with.

My experience is similar. Smaller "biglaw" firm that pays market. I may not make partner, but I was told I can stick around for several years anyway with accompanying salary bumps, and hopefully an increase in quality of life.

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1783 on: February 26, 2017, 03:56:07 PM »
My experience is similar. Smaller "biglaw" firm that pays market. I may not make partner, but I was told I can stick around for several years anyway with accompanying salary bumps, and hopefully an increase in quality of life.
Do you know of people in your firm who are there for longer who have been able to do that (stick around and be able to spend more time with family)?

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Re: Law School
« Reply #1784 on: February 26, 2017, 03:59:49 PM »
Aren't we all hoping that. But good luck to you with that. I wish I had any leverage...
Thanks same to you. You going March 1st?