Law School

[Frostboot]

Many of which built modern day economics into what it is today and without, capitalism never would have succeeded.

I was just objecting to the idea that the basis for all lawyer jokes are criminal lawyers and not Wall St. white-shoe guys.

[henche]

I am sorry but I think that is a big misconception. Who really knows (recruiters/screeners/partners would never admit it) but I have never met a frum partner who agreed with that statement. I have done extensive research on the Yarmulka question and have consistently been told that it will definitely hurt you. How much? That depends on which market you are in (NY<DC<Pittsburgh) school you are in (HLS<GW<BLS) and your grades.

There is always that "one guy" who got the job because of his Yarmulka (I suppose he doesn't really exist) but I think it is fair to say that you get the job despite your Yarmulka.

To be fair, the frum partners were hired 20 years ago in a different world, and many still don't wear yarlmukes bec they don't want to switch. So it isn't surprising they'd say that.

Ask the non-frum partners.

[henche]

Many of which had a big part in causing the financial crisis. Just saying…

Lolwut?

You mean because the mortgage securities agreements were made with large contracts? That's like saying houses are bad because they caused they financial crisis.

[Frostboot]

Lolwut?

You mean because the mortgage securities agreements were made with large contracts? That's like saying houses are bad because they caused they financial crisis.

Houses don't have intelligence or free will….

[Frostboot]

To be fair, the frum partners were hired 20 years ago in a different world, and many still don't wear yarlmukes bec they don't want to switch. So it isn't surprising they'd say that.

Ask the non-frum partners.

Yes, Yarmulka wearing is way more prevalent today and at least in NY will hurt you less than it would've 20 years ago. The frum partners I spoke to seemed to know a lot about their firms' hiring processes. As for asking a not frum partner/recruiters, that is something I always wanted to do, though, I don't think it would go over too well. I once asked the Yarmulka question to a law school career services guy and did not get anything near the answer I was looking for.

[AJK]

I am sorry but I think that is a big misconception. Who really knows (recruiters/screeners/partners would never admit it) but I have never met a frum partner who agreed with that statement. I have done extensive research on the Yarmulka question and have consistently been told that it will definitely hurt you. How much? That depends on which market you are in (NY<DC<Pittsburgh) school you are in (HLS<GW<BLS) and your grades.

There is always that "one guy" who got the job because of his Yarmulka (I suppose he doesn't really exist) but I think it is fair to say that you get the job despite your Yarmulka.

To be fair, I said "in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance" (emphasis added).

I can't claim to have done representative studies on the issue, and I certainly haven't done "extensive research on the yarmulka question" but I certainly don't think I got the job *despite* my Yarmulka.

That said, the hiring partner of my firm is religious, but does not wear a yarmulka.

[Frostboot]

Lolwut?

You mean because the mortgage securities agreements were made with large contracts? That's like saying houses are bad because they caused they financial crisis.

Your telling me that AIG, Lehman or Bear Sterns lawyers did not realize the insane amount of unregulated risk they assisted their clients in putting on their books?

[Frostboot]

To be fair, I said "in some instances, a religious Jew actually has a better chance" (emphasis added).

I can't claim to have done representative studies on the issue, and I certainly haven't done "extensive research on the yarmulka question" but I certainly don't think I got the job *despite* my Yarmulka.

Do you think you would have gotten more offers w/o a yarmulka?

[AJK]

Let me answer your question by not answering it:

I ascribe to a certain approach to life that dictates that I am getting whatever is coming to me regardless of me trying to "game" the system.

Thus, if I am to make $10 today, I am going to make $10 and only $10. If I rob the corner store of $100 today to try and tweak that result, I'll simply lose that $100, say, tomorrow when a common stock I own goes down by a nickel. It all comes out in the wash.

Thus, after I decided it was the right thing for me (and I stress that) to wear a Yarmulka in my interviews that led to this particular job in this particular market, I don't entertain what could have happened if I had tried to, what for me was, game the system.

[henche]

Houses don't have intelligence or free will….

Neither do contracts.

Which isn't the point. The point is that tranched residential mortgage backed securities caused the crisis  (specifically, the failure of the insurers to price the risk of failure accurately).

Like any business, it needs to be contracted. But to blame the issue on the contract-or even the people who write them, makes about as much sense as blaming the houses.

Your telling me that AIG, Lehman or Bear Sterns lawyers did not realize the insane amount of unregulated risk they assisted their clients in putting on their books?

I have no idea if they did or didn't. Nor do I have any idea if the accountants realized, or if the ibankers realized, or if the secretaries who printed the contracts or the document processors who formatted the contracts realized. In all events, it certainly had nothing to do with the making of contracts instead of just going by "ones word".

And in all events, blaming the legal profession for the mess because you think some lawyers were aware of the things that the bankers were doing, is hilarious.

[Frostboot]

Neither do contracts.

Which isn't the point. The point is that tranched residential mortgage backed securities caused the crisis  (specifically, the failure of the insurers to price the risk of failure accurately).

Like any business, it needs to be contracted. But to blame the issue on the contract-or even the people who write them, makes about as much sense as blaming the houses.
I have no idea if they did or didn't. Nor do I have any idea if the accountants realized, or if the ibankers realized, or if the secretaries who printed the contracts or the document processors who formatted the contracts realized. In all events, it certainly had nothing to do with the making of contracts instead of just going by "ones word".

And in all events, blaming the legal profession for the mess because you think some lawyers were aware of the things that the bankers were doing, is hilarious.

New Joke: Why did the lawyer draft the contract (Or RS/OM)? Because the banker asked him to.

[henche]

Yes, Yarmulka wearing is way more prevalent today and at least in NY will hurt you less than it would've 20 years ago. The frum partners I spoke to seemed to know a lot about their firms' hiring processes. As for asking a not frum partner/recruiters, that is something I always wanted to do, though, I don't think it would go over too well. I once asked the Yarmulka question to a law school career services guy and did not get anything near the answer I was looking for.

Look, I do not believe that hiring committees in recent years explicitly discuss the fact that a candidate wore a yarmuke. If it makes a difference, it would be in the perceptions of the interviewers, and affect how the write the review which they send to hiring committee.

So it isn't exactly clear what insight into hiring practices one might have. That's why  I say to ask the nonfrum partners whether it has an effect on themselves.

[Frostboot]

Look, I do not believe that hiring committees in recent years explicitly discuss the fact that a candidate wore a yarmuke. If it makes a difference, it would be in the perceptions of the interviewers, and affect how the write the review which they send to hiring committee.

So it isn't exactly clear what insight into hiring practices one might have. That's why  I say to ask the nonfrum partners whether it has an effect on themselves.

Obviously, the people I asked were expressing their own personal opinion and I wouldn't know where they gain their insight into their firms' hiring processes from. One of the best answers I have gotten so far is that a Yarmulka creates a barrier on the 20 min. screener. Point is you have 20 min to make an excellent impression and it could take the whole interview for the screener to get over the Yarmulka. Imagine a guy sitting down to a screener with a huge cross hanging down from his neck. Everyone is going to argue that it is much different but is it??? I have tried to feel out people I have gone to school with and worked with at a firm to see if this idea is true (Did it take them some time to warm up to me because of my Yarmulka). It seems that it depends on the person's pre-exposure to "frum" people.   

[Frostboot]

Let me answer your question by not answering it:

I ascribe to a certain approach to life that dictates that I am getting whatever is coming to me regardless of me trying to "game" the system.

Thus, if I am to make $10 today, I am going to make $10 and only $10. If I rob the corner store of $100 today to try and tweak that result, I'll simply lose that $100, say, tomorrow when a common stock I own goes down by a nickel. It all comes out in the wash.

Thus, after I decided it was the right thing for me (and I stress that) to wear a Yarmulka in my interviews that led to this particular job in this particular market, I don't entertain what could have happened if I had tried to, what for me was, game the system.

But now that I am asking you to think about it?

[AJK]

I would have gotten the same job, because that's what was meant for me. Or I would have gotten a job with the same salary elsewhere that leads to the same stress, same hours, same everything. Ultimately, it makes no difference.

As my mother says, "one can never go wrong by doing the right thing."

[Frostboot]

But now that I am asking you to think about it?

Let me answer your question by not answering it:

I ascribe to a certain approach to life that dictates that I am getting whatever is coming to me regardless of me trying to "game" the system.

Thus, if I am to make $10 today, I am going to make $10 and only $10. If I rob the corner store of $100 today to try and tweak that result, I'll simply lose that $100, say, tomorrow when a common stock I own goes down by a nickel. It all comes out in the wash.

Thus, after I decided it was the right thing for me (and I stress that) to wear a Yarmulka in my interviews that led to this particular job in this particular market, I don't entertain what could have happened if I had tried to, what for me was, game the system.

Let me make it easier for you: consider the school you went to, the market you work in (I assume NYC), your grades, and the time period you entered the market, adjust for external factors (Are you the super personal/quiet type). Now, do you think you got as many offers as a comparable classmate?

[Frostboot]

I would have gotten the same job, because that's what was meant for me.

Whole different topic  …..

[AJK]

Let me make it easier for you: consider the school you went to, the market you work in (I assume NYC), your grades, and the time period you entered the market, adjust for external factors (Are you the super personal/quiet type). Now, do you think you got as many offers as a comparable classmate?

I came out of school during perhaps the bloodiest carnage that we'd seen in 40 years of legal hiring, so I'm happy to have any job. But I got the job that was coming to me. And did so with a yarmulka.

[shiframeir]

Amen, AJK is an exceptionally faithful person. I believe in a stronger level of bechira (the Ohr Hachaim view) that we can do things that are not necessarily in the plan, and of course our activities affect us (so e.g. if instead of stealing $100 or working for the "intended" $10 i just sit at home and watch Ricki Lake, i won't even get $10).

per my experience and anecdotally, yarmulke does make a difference, but hey, a lot of this is "luck/hashgacha pratis" in any event. but if u are a guy that will wear a yarmulke, i would strongly suggest u take the significant chance of more rigorous hiring scrutiny in your law school decision.

[henche]

I like my job. I like nest. In all the world, my nest is best.