Author Topic: Baby dies due to bris  (Read 20358 times)

Offline Dan

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2012, 11:35:16 PM »
+1
Maybe I am missing something but to my very limited understanding (I have not researched the issue at all) metzizah, let alone b'peh, us not me'akev. isn't this a simple question of pikuach nefesh?
I don't think 1 death out of hundreds of thousands is called pikuach nefesh enough to start changing age old traditions, otherwise we also would stop fasting on fast days, etc.
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Offline shach

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Re: Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2012, 11:37:43 PM »
+1
Maybe I am missing something but to my very limited understanding (I have not researched the issue at all) metzizah, let alone b'peh, us not me'akev
correct, yet it is a halachic danger not to do it.
i did hear from mosey people that the accusations from a few years ago aren't as clear cut as they sound. can any monsey people weigh in on this?
i was just told by an acquaintance of the monsey mohel, that "he was acquitted back then cause he did not have the virus/same virus the baby RCH"L died from"
any one else hear of this

Offline njmacman

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2012, 12:13:21 PM »
Rav Tendler has been saying for years they should do metzitzah on an upside down syringe. BD"E.

Offline shach

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2012, 01:19:44 PM »
Rav Tendler has been saying for years they should do metzitzah on an upside down syringe. BD"E.
Rabbi tendler is not the first on this topic, and maybe he would be kind enough of fighting his fight "amongst us" rather than joining the courts on this one...

Offline Mocha

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2012, 01:33:03 PM »
Rabbi tendler is not the first on this topic, and maybe he would be kind enough of fighting his fight "amongst us" rather than joining the courts on this one...
I don't know the politics nor do I care, but based on your comment it seems that Rabbi Tendler went to the courts last time this happened. If that's the case I find it hard to believe that he did that prior to even trying to speak with the major Rabbanim to hear him out. Now if his pleas fell on deaf ears and he believes that whatever modifications to metzitza are halachically adequate, and furthermore they can avoid deaths r"l, then I completely agree with him overstepping "us" and going to the courts...and I would do the same.

Interesting to see the topic addressed on the website of the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene
« Last Edit: March 06, 2012, 01:38:09 PM by Mocha »

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2012, 01:34:16 PM »

Offline shach

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #26 on: March 06, 2012, 02:41:13 PM »
I don't know the politics nor do I care, but based on your comment it seems that Rabbi Tendler went to the courts last time this happened. If that's the case I find it hard to believe that he did that prior to even trying to speak with the major Rabbanim to hear him out. Now if his pleas fell on deaf ears and he believes that whatever modifications to metzitza are halachically adequate, and furthermore they can avoid deaths r"l, then I completely agree with him overstepping "us" and going to the courts...and I would do the same.

Interesting to see the topic addressed on the website of the New York City Department of Health and Mental Hygiene

if he got a heter erkaot no problem. yet the outcry of the rabbonim back then didn't seem that way, hey i may be wrong too.

Offline elikay

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2012, 08:55:28 PM »

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2012, 08:49:09 AM »
Just the web address gives me jitters.

:)
Don't worry, it's just R. Slifkin

Offline rivkyw

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #29 on: March 09, 2012, 01:03:41 PM »
Does the mohel need to do the metzitza b'peh or can anyone do it?
not everyone believes this is truly necessary.

Offline Dan

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #30 on: March 09, 2012, 01:05:36 PM »
not everyone believes this is truly necessary.
Obviously I'm asking for those (seemingly mostly chassidim) who do deem it an integral part of the milah.
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Offline meshugener

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #31 on: March 09, 2012, 01:59:20 PM »
Is there any way to do a test on the mohel before the bris to check if he has any virus?
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Offline elikay

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2012, 11:50:04 PM »
not everyone believes this is truly necessary.
not everyone believes many things are truly necessary ::)

Offline shmuelb

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #33 on: March 11, 2012, 10:06:04 AM »
:)
Don't worry, it's just R. Slifkin

*it's just N. Slifkin

it gives me jitters too. Yiddishkeit is not to be held up to our "great rational and enlightened minds" even if we have a BA in zoology. Al yemin shehu smol. We submit ourselves to the gadlus of Toras Hashem and real Talmidei Chachamim. Hashem Yerachem.
siyag lachachma :-)

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #34 on: March 12, 2012, 07:19:58 AM »
*it's just N. Slifkin

it gives me jitters too. Yiddishkeit is not to be held up to our "great rational and enlightened minds" even if we have a BA in zoology. Al yemin shehu smol. We submit ourselves to the gadlus of Toras Hashem and real Talmidei Chachamim. Hashem Yerachem.

:)
Not even worth responding.
I'll simply submit myself to the Rabbanim who did give him a haskama b/f they received pressure from Rabbanim in E"Y who aren't familiar with the tzibbur in the US.

Reminds me of what just s/t similar that happened with us recently. My brother in law lives in Beitar Illit, and one of his neighbors left us a stack of old mishpacha and binah magazines since my wife enjoys them. My b-i-l didn't want my sister in law to give them to us due to the recent "ban" against them. In the end, he asked his Rav what to do (imagine that, asking your Rav and not relying on posters hung up ;)) and he said that the ban was for a specific type of community, and that we could receive them.

It's the underlying idea that different communities require different gedarim to keep them on track. And in the US, the rabbanim initially had no problem with the books for this exact reason.

Either way, we could always start a new thread to discuss further.

Offline shmuelb

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #35 on: March 12, 2012, 08:05:43 AM »
Quote
I'll simply submit myself to the Rabbanim who did give him a haskama b/f they received pressure from Rabbanim in E"Y who aren't familiar with the tzibbur in the US.

That is what I am talking about, his site is "rationalistjudaism" and from his own site it seems clear that he thinks his own brain is smarter, more enlightened, rational and reliable than the Rabanim who wrote Haskamos for his books. I am sorry for him, I assume he is a nice guy.

Quote
Not even worth responding.
pm sent
siyag lachachma :-)

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #36 on: March 12, 2012, 08:15:19 AM »
pm sent

I responded with a pm. I'll consider the topic closed in the forum unless it's continued by others.

Offline moish

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #37 on: March 12, 2012, 08:34:36 AM »
:)
Not even worth responding.
I'll simply submit myself to the Rabbanim who did give him a haskama b/f they received pressure from Rabbanim in E"Y who aren't familiar with the tzibbur in the US.

Reminds me of what just s/t similar that happened with us recently. My brother in law lives in Beitar Illit, and one of his neighbors left us a stack of old mishpacha and binah magazines since my wife enjoys them. My b-i-l didn't want my sister in law to give them to us due to the recent "ban" against them. In the end, he asked his Rav what to do (imagine that, asking your Rav and not relying on posters hung up ;)) and he said that the ban was for a specific type of community, and that we could receive them.

It's the underlying idea that different communities require different gedarim to keep them on track. And in the US, the rabbanim initially had no problem with the books for this exact reason.

Either way, we could always start a new thread to discuss further.
what a joke... comparing kefira to a political disagreement

Offline Expert Flyer

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #38 on: March 12, 2012, 12:46:25 PM »
 If there is a posibilty that a infant can be infected with a deadly disease via MBP transfered to the baby from the fluids in the mouth of the Mohel, the very least we can do is make people aware of that possibilty and give them choices. Chamira Sakanta MeiIsura.   
   
Someone made a comparison the the practice of bloodletting. There was a lot of that going on during the days of Chzal and it continued to be considered a medically benefial procedure through most of the 19th century. Chazal even permitted violation of Shabbos if necessary. It was believed that it was a lifesaving medical treatment.   
   
How many Poskim would permit violating Shabbos for bloodletting today? The answer is zero. Not only that I don't think there is a Posek alive today that would permit bloodletting at all even on a weekday.   
   
The Gemarah is clear. the entire purpose of Metzitza is for the health of the baby. They understood the importance pre-empting Sakana. The life of the baby was more important Shabbos. It should certainly be more imprtant than any stigma MBP might get because of informing the public about its possible dangers.

Courtesy to Harry Maryles

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #39 on: March 12, 2012, 02:46:51 PM »
what a joke... comparing kefira to a political disagreement

I'm assuming you read the language on the ban. According to the Rabbanim that (supposedly) signed, it was assur to read them. Not a political disagreement.

Now... if you want to say that in reality, ppl pulled the wool over their eyes to advance their own interests, and used the rabbanim towards that end, well... I can't imagine you would ever admit that the rabbanim could ever be played this way.

But choose, did they pasken it's assur, or did they say it's assur even though it's a simple 'political disagreement'? Seems to be a catch-22