Author Topic: Baby dies due to bris  (Read 11911 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2012, 11:45:08 PM »
I'm referring to the following signs:

Virtually all of these signs have become true over the past 50 years. I don't know why you keep mentioning Rabbi Akivah. I'm ready for Moshiach to come NOW, and you should be too (or at least revise your Shmone Esrei accordingly).
I never said Moshiach won't come, nor that I don't want him to come. I just want to say that there were signs that it is imminent for a very long time.
Of course we want Moshicah to come right now, but that doesn't mean he will, unfortunately.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2012, 11:53:06 PM »
I never said Moshiach won't come, nor that I don't want him to come. I just want to say that there were signs that it is imminent for a very long time.
Of course we want Moshicah to come right now, but that doesn't mean he will, unfortunately.

1. צפית doesn't mean hoping, it means awaiting.

2. Those signs I quoted to you (from the mishna) were present throughout history?

3. Those signs I quoted to you aren't present in the past generation or two more than ever before?
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Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #62 on: March 14, 2012, 12:01:42 AM »
1. צפית doesn't mean hoping, it means awaiting.

2. Those signs I quoted to you (from the mishna) were present throughout history?

3. Those signs I quoted to you aren't present in the past generation or two more than ever before?
I mentioned R Akiva, because he assumed (based on other signs) Moshiach was coming. I'm not such a pro, but yes I think throughout history people were saying the golus can't go on for much longer and Moshiach is definitely coming soon, etc. etc.

I am not so proficient at the various signs, since I can't find my hands and legs in them. Ch"v that I doubt chazal, but how many conflicting chazal's are there about which day of the week, month he will come on?
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #63 on: March 14, 2012, 12:11:27 AM »
I mentioned R Akiva, because he assumed (based on other signs) Moshiach was coming. I'm not such a pro, but yes I think throughout history people were saying the golus can't go on for much longer and Moshiach is definitely coming soon, etc. etc.

I am not so proficient at the various signs, since I can't find my hands and legs in them. Ch"v that I doubt chazal, but how many conflicting chazal's are there about which day of the week, month he will come on?

Moshiach encomasses two of the 13 principles of faith, and is one of the si things a person is asked when they arrive in Heaven, I advise you to do some studying.
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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #64 on: March 14, 2012, 12:21:00 AM »
Moshiach encomasses two of the 13 principles of faith, and is one of the si things a person is asked when they arrive in Heaven, I advise you to do some studying.
Those refer to his existence, and the ability of Hashem to send him right now, not being 100% sure it will happen.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #65 on: March 14, 2012, 12:35:35 AM »
Those refer to his existence, and the ability of Hashem to send him right now, not being 100% sure it will happen.

1. As I said above:

1. צפית doesn't mean hoping, it means awaiting.

2. ואף על פי שיתמהמה, עם כל זה אחכה לו בכל יום שיבוא

3. וכל מי שאינו מאמין בו, או מי שאינו מחכה לביאתו--לא בשאר נביאים בלבד הוא כופר, אלא בתורה ובמשה רבנו

And there are many more.

You should cunsult with some Rabbis or other Hashkafic people you trust, and get some clarity on these matters.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #66 on: March 14, 2012, 01:54:23 AM »
I mentioned R Akiva, because he assumed (based on other signs) Moshiach was coming. I'm not such a pro, but yes I think throughout history people were saying the golus can't go on for much longer and Moshiach is definitely coming soon, etc. etc.

My understanding is that he didn't think Moshiach was coming, he thought that Bar Kochva was actually the mashiach. That's a step further removed from simply thinking that we may live in the messianic era.

But I'm also sensitive to the danger of too many ppl thinking that Mashiach is imminent. Think Shabbtai Tzvi for example, and the mess that ensured. None the less, I think that factually, AsherO is correct. This may be why most Rabbanim don't talk about mashiach too much, b/c of this tension.

Either way, maybe a mashiach thread should be started? (And not one related to Chabad)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #67 on: March 14, 2012, 02:00:20 AM »
My understanding is that he didn't think Moshiach was coming, he thought that Bar Kochva was actually the mashiach. That's a step further removed from simply thinking that we may live in the messianic era.

But I'm also sensitive to the danger of too many ppl thinking that Mashiach is imminent. Think Shabbtai Tzvi for example, and the mess that ensured. None the less, I think that factually, AsherO is correct. This may be why most Rabbanim don't talk about mashiach too much, b/c of this tension.

Either way, maybe a mashiach thread should be started? (And not one related to Chabad)

I'm all for a Moshiach thread, and even more for it if it actually discusses Moshiach (and not what some chabad or non-chabad people believe). The Shabbtai Tzvi (Yms"h) situation was crazy, but I don't think it warrants dismantling the foundations/principles of our faith.

Also, for the record, ikvesa d'mshicha is not 'the messianic era', it's the period immediately before Moshiach's coming, granted the duration of this period is not defined (AFAIK). Oh, and I've been meaning to say for a while now, that the Chofetz Chaim was known for his awaiting the imminent coming of the Moshiach.

P.s. Mods, please consider forking a Moshiach thread.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #68 on: March 14, 2012, 03:45:58 AM »
The Shabbtai Tzvi (Yms"h) situation was crazy, but I don't think it warrants dismantling the foundations/principles of our faith.

Of course not, but it probably contributes to why it's not a source of shmoozim and such.
I think its similar to why nach isn't studies in many places, for 2 reasons.
1) The Christians took it as their own
2) It has a lot of talk about "the end of days"

Also, for the record, ikvesa d'mshicha is not 'the messianic era', it's the period immediately before Moshiach's coming, granted the duration of this period is not defined (AFAIK).
Correct, I used a poor english translation

Offline shmuelb

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #69 on: March 14, 2012, 04:18:03 AM »
(or at least revise your Shmone Esrei accordingly).

Firstly, the difference between NS and NA is not if you should be "Metzapim liyeshua". Many mefarshim hold that even NS should not say the words, it was put in to have kavana at that point for "metzapim liyeshua" therefore some NS do not say the words, some have it in parenthesis.

Read the back of the 200 shekel bill for more inspiration.

OT - the other side of the bill is amazing!  :o ;D 8) I have strong feelings that most "Chiloni" ppl have not read it or do not carry it.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2012, 04:23:02 AM by shmuelb »
siyag lachachma :-)

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #70 on: March 14, 2012, 10:28:18 AM »
Oh, and I've been meaning to say for a while now, that the Chofetz Chaim was known for his awaiting the imminent coming of the Moshiach.


Yes, indeed. I have read he kept a suitcase by the front door or something to that effect.
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Offline AsherO

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #71 on: March 14, 2012, 10:31:07 AM »
Yes, indeed. I have read he kept a suitcase by the front door or something to that effect.

That's what's said. I don't know the source so I didn't want to get into specifics, but there are numerous stories about his eagerly awaiting the Moshiach in a very real/imminent way.
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Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #72 on: March 14, 2012, 02:18:42 PM »
That's what's said. I don't know the source so I didn't want to get into specifics, but there are numerous stories about his eagerly awaiting the Moshiach in a very real/imminent way.

I don't know the story, but keep in mind that halacha frequently has us do certain actions in order to engender a certain emotion in us. For example, we aren't supposed to paint (or leave completely unfinished) part of the entrance way of our house to remember the churban. Unfortunately though, I'm not sure how often we truly feel the loss, despite the action.
It's possible that the C"C was trying to do the same. Perform an action in order to create a certain emotional state.

Offline AsherO

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #73 on: March 14, 2012, 03:58:47 PM »
I don't know the story, but keep in mind that halacha frequently has us do certain actions in order to engender a certain emotion in us. For example, we aren't supposed to paint (or leave completely unfinished) part of the entrance way of our house to remember the churban. Unfortunately though, I'm not sure how often we truly feel the loss, despite the action.
It's possible that the C"C was trying to do the same. Perform an action in order to create a certain emotional state.

Riiight... Because the C"C was just like you and me... ::)
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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #74 on: March 14, 2012, 04:12:49 PM »
I don't know the story, but keep in mind that halacha frequently has us do certain actions in order to engender a certain emotion in us. For example, we aren't supposed to paint (or leave completely unfinished) part of the entrance way of our house to remember the churban. Unfortunately though, I'm not sure how often we truly feel the loss, despite the action.
It's possible that the C"C was trying to do the same. Perform an action in order to create a certain emotional state.
Reminds me of a good story. I walked into a briskers house; he had 2 zecher lachurbans, one zecher, and one Zeichar.
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