Author Topic: Baby dies due to bris  (Read 11770 times)

Offline U-no-me!

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #90 on: March 15, 2012, 11:00:32 AM »
No, but I claim to know what He wants of us. It's found in the torah and the mesora (look, I rhymed). And the reasons we're told to do such acts is found either mefurash in the torah, or  in the torah shebaal peh.
I didn't realize that tzaddikim had different obligations than us DDF'ers. And if Hashem wants us all to do all the mitzvot, then I'm sure that they can all benefit us in some way, no matter what our spiritual standing is.

Listen, I'm not at all putting down the C'C. All I'm saying is that the purpose of many mitzvot (tzitzis for eg) and minhagim (kippa for eg) is to create a certain feeling in us. And it's possible that the C'C did this for the same reason as well. But for whatever reason he did so, it's still a very high level he's on. Most of us wouldn't think of doing such a thing, either b/c we don't feel it, or b/c we aren't so interested in feeling it.

My friend,

So you know clearly know what hashem wants form us? based on what? YOUR intrepretation of chazal?

You claim that the purpose of some mitzvos is just to "create a certain feeling in us" are you joking? gimme a break. Yes there is taamei hamitzvos but there is way way more to any mitzvah besides one of the taamim.

BTW where did you get that, that the reason for tzitzis is to create a feeling? do you say krias shma? is to remeber the mitzvos only a feeling?
where did you get that in regards to minhagim?
where did you get that in regards to a (deffinitly only a d'rabonon) kippah? deffinitly not from shulcha aruch. unless you call to remind you of yiras hashem and G-D only a feeling.
You sound reform where it's all about "feeling". especially with your need to belittle the C"C to put on a closer level to us.
You almost sound like your reading alot of slifkin trash without learning the fundamentals.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2012, 11:12:55 AM by u-no-me- »
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Offline shmuelb

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #91 on: March 15, 2012, 11:53:22 AM »
The first two laughs I understand ;) but what's the third for?

Just in case the first two get mixed up.
siyag lachachma :-)

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #92 on: March 15, 2012, 01:36:20 PM »
My friend,

So you know clearly know what hashem wants form us? based on what? YOUR intrepretation of chazal?

You claim that the purpose of some mitzvos is just to "create a certain feeling in us" are you joking? gimme a break. Yes there is taamei hamitzvos but there is way way more to any mitzvah besides one of the taamim.

BTW where did you get that, that the reason for tzitzis is to create a feeling? do you say krias shma? is to remeber the mitzvos only a feeling?
where did you get that in regards to minhagim?
where did you get that in regards to a (deffinitly only a d'rabonon) kippah? deffinitly not from shulcha aruch. unless you call to remind you of yiras hashem and G-D only a feeling.
You sound reform where it's all about "feeling". especially with your need to belittle the C"C to put on a closer level to us.
You almost sound like your reading alot of slifkin trash without learning the fundamentals.

Jee whiz, you're parsing e/t I say, even though we're probably in 99% agreement.
1) I'm not basing anything on MY interpretation of chazal. It's on what they wrote. (Unless you think that we're on too low a level to understand anything written in the gemara, rishonim, achronim, or artscroll books)
2) You're right, 'feeling' is the wrong work. It's too weak and wishy washy. They create a certain 'state-of-mind' for us to be in. This in meant to influence us in all of our daily actions, to make out lives more God-centric.
3) One of the main purposes of tzitzit is to assist us in remembering mitzvot, ie, a state of mind. Similar to kippa, although that's for Hashems presence.
4) I never wrote that this 'state of mind' is the only reason for mitzvot. However, I think it's probably the most 'practical' reason for us in our daily lives. The hashpa they may have in the upper realms is operating on another plane altogether. And the schar we receive will typically serve me in good stead in the after-life (although the torah does explicitly say that some will have an influence in our current life, such as arichus yamim)
5) I'll pass on the personal insults, it would remove me from my proper 'state of mind'.

I would advise learning the sefer hachinuch, or the Rambam's sefer hamitzvos. I have gained a lot from them.

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #93 on: March 15, 2012, 01:48:42 PM »
@Reuven loved number 5. It's a shame I can't copy and paste the Chinuch - he's yelling at you for saying what the Chinuch says nearly word by word. I believe the Rambam counts this as one of the 3 reasons for all the Mitzvos (in the Moreh).
Although there are other reasons for these Mitzvos, the Rambam seemed to hold they are the only reason (not discussing specific mitzvos now), and the other reasons are from Rishonim who disagreed with him.
Our messorah is generally like the Ramban, but you can't bash someone for saying something which is true according to some Rishonim
Purpose > Pleasure

Offline AsherO

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #94 on: March 15, 2012, 02:08:47 PM »
@Reuven @PlatinumGuy

Just because a Tzaddik has the same Taryag obligations as you doesn't mean he experiences the mitzvos just like you do. You're entitled an opinion to the contrary, but I'm wondering what your sources are.

PGF24BMGS

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #95 on: March 15, 2012, 02:31:03 PM »
@Reuven loved number 5. It's a shame I can't copy and paste the Chinuch - he's yelling at you for saying what the Chinuch says nearly word by word. I believe the Rambam counts this as one of the 3 reasons for all the Mitzvos (in the Moreh).
Although there are other reasons for these Mitzvos, the Rambam seemed to hold they are the only reason (not discussing specific mitzvos now), and the other reasons are from Rishonim who disagreed with him.
Our messorah is generally like the Ramban, but you can't bash someone for saying something which is true according to some Rishonim

I'm familiar with the chinuch since I've been going through it for a while now, and would like to make a siyum later this year.
I also understand that the Ramban has a different school of thought, which is why I purposefully don't insult ppl who may have that approach. If it speaks to them and helps them become better ovdei Hashem, then by all means ...

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #96 on: March 15, 2012, 02:32:45 PM »
@Reuven @PlatinumGuy

Just because a Tzaddik has the same Taryag obligations as you doesn't mean he experiences the mitzvos just like you do. You're entitled an opinion to the contrary, but I'm wondering what your sources are.



I'd like to know where it says that tzaddikim experience e/t in a much different manner than us.
My proof is since the ta'amei hamitzos don't differentiate btw a tzaddik and others. Proof by omission.

Offline meshugener

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #97 on: March 15, 2012, 03:47:39 PM »
And...........           A baby dies due to bris.
Love me or hate me. I still love you.

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #98 on: March 15, 2012, 03:49:34 PM »
@AsherO
I just realized that part of our difference with regards to tzadikim may stem from the historical chasidish / non-chasidish saga. (I am guessing you're Chabad)
In that case, I have no doubt you will be able to marshal many sources, but to continue the argument would simply be a continuation of the arguments from the last several hundred years.
Perhaps we can leave it as is? We have different views, both valid, and both worthy of respect (he asks hopefully)?

Offline Drago

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #99 on: March 15, 2012, 03:49:59 PM »
And...........           A baby dies due to bris.
Is that what this thread was about?
:)

Offline AsherO

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #100 on: March 15, 2012, 04:13:06 PM »
I'd like to know where it says that tzaddikim experience e/t in a much different manner than us.
My proof is since the ta'amei hamitzos don't differentiate btw a tzaddik and others. Proof by omission.

So then how do you define a Tzaddik? It's simply behavioral?

@AsherO
I just realized that part of our difference with regards to tzadikim may stem from the historical chasidish / non-chasidish saga. (I am guessing you're Chabad)
In that case, I have no doubt you will be able to marshal many sources, but to continue the argument would simply be a continuation of the arguments from the last several hundred years.
Perhaps we can leave it as is? We have different views, both valid, and both worthy of respect (he asks hopefully)?

I find it's ironic that I'm defending the C"C's respect, but I don't feel he was respected in this post. While I agree that we differ on Hashkafa, I disagree that this is the same 'argument' as has been going on for hundreds of years. I'm confident the Gr"a, or any of the oilomishe gdolim would see things differently than you do.
PGF24BMGS

Offline David B

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #101 on: March 15, 2012, 07:56:13 PM »
http://www.lohud.com/article/20120315/NEWS03/303150130/Monsey-mohel-part-probe-into-death-newborn?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage

Im not sure if this site ever has nice things to say about Jews but check it out

This site is simply the site of the publisher of the local print newspapers in Westchester and Rockland counties.  I've not found it to be biased against Jews.

Offline MarkS

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #102 on: March 28, 2012, 11:29:47 AM »
Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky says to use a sterile tube when doing Metzizah!!

Offline shach

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #103 on: March 28, 2012, 07:39:21 PM »
Rav Shmuel Kaminetzky says to use a sterile tube when doing Metzizah!!
could we get that in writing not via phone interview

Offline MarkS

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Re: Baby dies due to bris
« Reply #104 on: April 01, 2012, 12:43:42 AM »