Baby dies due to bris

[U-no-me!]

The culture and continuation of Edom is deffinitly "the west". The kingdom of Edom itself has been destroyed.

Where did you get that, that today's christians are descendants of Yaakov? Christians are made up of many many many goups. I beleive there is a mahrsha in chagigah or taanis (I forget) on the gemora "garmamya shel Edom" that says it's germany. The original christians went begging for followers and brought in many pagan cults, hence december 25th with it's trees etc;.

R' Akiva thought in the beginning that Bar Kochba was moshiach, but soon after realized he deffinitly was not.

Sorry, the gemorra "garmamya shel edom" is found in megilla 6b on top. The gemora explains that if they were able to, they would destroy the whole world. Rashi explains that "garmamya" is a name of a country. R' Yaakov Emden writes that "garmaya" is today's germany. Note: R' Emden lived aprox. 200 years before Hitler YM"S.

[AsherO]

See sefer hachinuch mitzvah ?? "ha'adam nifaal l'fee pe'ulosov"

I'm not disputing that. I'm replying to a specific statement about the C"C by Reuven.

Kurbonos according to the chinuch?

I don't understand? Are you citing the same source as meshugener?

If G-d thinks that we all need it, I believe we all need it. Just to different extents.

FTFY.

You claim to know what G-d thinks?

Either way, I was addressing what you suggested about the C"C. It's ludicrous (IMHO) to suggest he had to "act out" impatience for Moshiach hoping it would make him feel that way. You equated him to us in that regard, which is just as ludicrous (IMHO).

[PlatinumGuy]

I don't understand? Are you citing the same source as meshugener?

The Chinuch holds the Kurbnus are intended to sink in yeshiva and avodas hashem by bringing it out to action. IIRC this is also the Ramban's explanation (as opposed to the famous Rambam)

[AsherO]

The Chinuch holds the Kurbnus are intended to sink in yeshiva and avodas hashem by bringing it out to action. IIRC this is also the Ramban's explanation (as opposed to the famous Rambam)

I'm going to have to ask you to cite sources, no offense, but your English is incomprehensible.

[PlatinumGuy]

I'm going to have to ask you to cite sources, no offense, but your English is incomprehensible.

I can try to look for it later. The Chinuch explains the reason for the mitzvah of kurbnos is to ingrain teshuva and Yiraas hashem by commiting physical actions.

[AsherO]

I can try to look for it later. The Chinuch explains the reason for the mitzvah of kurbnos is to ingrain teshuva and Yiraas hashem by commiting physical actions.

Does the chinuch say anything about a Tzaddik? What do you know about Teshuvah for a tzaddik?

Either way, we're discussing the chiyuv to await the redemption, not animal sacrifices.

[shmuelb]

Reminds me of a good story. I walked into a briskers house; he had 2 zecher lachurbans, one zecher, and one Zeichar.

 

[PlatinumGuy]

Does the chinuch say anything about a Tzaddik? What do you know about Teshuvah for a tzaddik?

Either way, we're discussing the chiyuv to await the redemption, not animal sacrifices.

I was just quoting the need bring about machshava by maasim, which applies even to tzadikim. Not discussing this specific case with the C"c. Only point I want to add, without voicing any opinion, is that although the C"C started a kodshim kollel for this reason, he was at the forefront of the fight against the briskers who made kodshim the primary study of all yeshiva buchorim.

The first to laughs I understand but what's the third for?

[U-no-me!]

There is a kuntress from the C"C called "Ikvisa Demishicha" which is a compilation of different letters he wrote about "Ikvisa Demishicha". It seems the Chofetz Chaim held that by davening for moshiach (which we do many times a day) but not being actively ready for moshiach is a contradiction. that is why he was very much into learning kodshim taharos and knowing halacha l'maaseh, he raised money for kodshim taharos kollelim etc; He has a parable where someone invites the king for a royal meal but he does not prepare anything, he says that is true for us, if were really sincere and really believe, we would do necassry preparations.
don't know if the story of the suitcase is real, but if it is, it would have to do with sincerely beleiving in moshiach. There is a story with R' Noson Wachtfogel who always had a suitcase packed in case moshiach comes. Once a bochur blew shofar in the BMG dorm and R' Noson thought it was the shofar of moshiach. That is how real it was to him. He also sent messengers trying to find the Aseres Hashvotim to hasten the coming of moshiach.

[Drago]

You claim to know what G-d thinks?

No, but I claim to know what He wants of us. It's found in the torah and the mesora (look, I rhymed). And the reasons we're told to do such acts is found either mefurash in the torah, or  in the torah shebaal peh.

Does the chinuch say anything about a Tzaddik?

I didn't realize that tzaddikim had different obligations than us DDF'ers. And if Hashem wants us all to do all the mitzvot, then I'm sure that they can all benefit us in some way, no matter what our spiritual standing is.

Listen, I'm not at all putting down the C'C. All I'm saying is that the purpose of many mitzvot (tzitzis for eg) and minhagim (kippa for eg) is to create a certain feeling in us. And it's possible that the C'C did this for the same reason as well. But for whatever reason he did so, it's still a very high level he's on. Most of us wouldn't think of doing such a thing, either b/c we don't feel it, or b/c we aren't so interested in feeling it.

[U-no-me!]

No, but I claim to know what He wants of us. It's found in the torah and the mesora (look, I rhymed). And the reasons we're told to do such acts is found either mefurash in the torah, or  in the torah shebaal peh.
I didn't realize that tzaddikim had different obligations than us DDF'ers. And if Hashem wants us all to do all the mitzvot, then I'm sure that they can all benefit us in some way, no matter what our spiritual standing is.

Listen, I'm not at all putting down the C'C. All I'm saying is that the purpose of many mitzvot (tzitzis for eg) and minhagim (kippa for eg) is to create a certain feeling in us. And it's possible that the C'C did this for the same reason as well. But for whatever reason he did so, it's still a very high level he's on. Most of us wouldn't think of doing such a thing, either b/c we don't feel it, or b/c we aren't so interested in feeling it.

My friend,

So you know clearly know what hashem wants form us? based on what? YOUR intrepretation of chazal?

You claim that the purpose of some mitzvos is just to "create a certain feeling in us" are you joking? gimme a break. Yes there is taamei hamitzvos but there is way way more to any mitzvah besides one of the taamim.

BTW where did you get that, that the reason for tzitzis is to create a feeling? do you say krias shma? is to remeber the mitzvos only a feeling?
where did you get that in regards to minhagim?
where did you get that in regards to a (deffinitly only a d'rabonon) kippah? deffinitly not from shulcha aruch. unless you call to remind you of yiras hashem and G-D only a feeling.
You sound reform where it's all about "feeling". especially with your need to belittle the C"C to put on a closer level to us.
You almost sound like your reading alot of slifkin trash without learning the fundamentals.

[shmuelb]

The first two laughs I understand but what's the third for?

Just in case the first two get mixed up.

[Drago]

My friend,

So you know clearly know what hashem wants form us? based on what? YOUR intrepretation of chazal?

You claim that the purpose of some mitzvos is just to "create a certain feeling in us" are you joking? gimme a break. Yes there is taamei hamitzvos but there is way way more to any mitzvah besides one of the taamim.

BTW where did you get that, that the reason for tzitzis is to create a feeling? do you say krias shma? is to remeber the mitzvos only a feeling?
where did you get that in regards to minhagim?
where did you get that in regards to a (deffinitly only a d'rabonon) kippah? deffinitly not from shulcha aruch. unless you call to remind you of yiras hashem and G-D only a feeling.
You sound reform where it's all about "feeling". especially with your need to belittle the C"C to put on a closer level to us.
You almost sound like your reading alot of slifkin trash without learning the fundamentals.

Jee whiz, you're parsing e/t I say, even though we're probably in 99% agreement.
1) I'm not basing anything on MY interpretation of chazal. It's on what they wrote. (Unless you think that we're on too low a level to understand anything written in the gemara, rishonim, achronim, or artscroll books)
2) You're right, 'feeling' is the wrong work. It's too weak and wishy washy. They create a certain 'state-of-mind' for us to be in. This in meant to influence us in all of our daily actions, to make out lives more God-centric.
3) One of the main purposes of tzitzit is to assist us in remembering mitzvot, ie, a state of mind. Similar to kippa, although that's for Hashems presence.
4) I never wrote that this 'state of mind' is the only reason for mitzvot. However, I think it's probably the most 'practical' reason for us in our daily lives. The hashpa they may have in the upper realms is operating on another plane altogether. And the schar we receive will typically serve me in good stead in the after-life (although the torah does explicitly say that some will have an influence in our current life, such as arichus yamim)
5) I'll pass on the personal insults, it would remove me from my proper 'state of mind'.

I would advise learning the sefer hachinuch, or the Rambam's sefer hamitzvos. I have gained a lot from them.

[PlatinumGuy]

@Reuven loved number 5. It's a shame I can't copy and paste the Chinuch - he's yelling at you for saying what the Chinuch says nearly word by word. I believe the Rambam counts this as one of the 3 reasons for all the Mitzvos (in the Moreh).
Although there are other reasons for these Mitzvos, the Rambam seemed to hold they are the only reason (not discussing specific mitzvos now), and the other reasons are from Rishonim who disagreed with him.
Our messorah is generally like the Ramban, but you can't bash someone for saying something which is true according to some Rishonim

[AsherO]

@Reuven @PlatinumGuy

Just because a Tzaddik has the same Taryag obligations as you doesn't mean he experiences the mitzvos just like you do. You're entitled an opinion to the contrary, but I'm wondering what your sources are.

[Drago]

@Reuven loved number 5. It's a shame I can't copy and paste the Chinuch - he's yelling at you for saying what the Chinuch says nearly word by word. I believe the Rambam counts this as one of the 3 reasons for all the Mitzvos (in the Moreh).
Although there are other reasons for these Mitzvos, the Rambam seemed to hold they are the only reason (not discussing specific mitzvos now), and the other reasons are from Rishonim who disagreed with him.
Our messorah is generally like the Ramban, but you can't bash someone for saying something which is true according to some Rishonim

I'm familiar with the chinuch since I've been going through it for a while now, and would like to make a siyum later this year.
I also understand that the Ramban has a different school of thought, which is why I purposefully don't insult ppl who may have that approach. If it speaks to them and helps them become better ovdei Hashem, then by all means ...

[Drago]

@Reuven @PlatinumGuy

Just because a Tzaddik has the same Taryag obligations as you doesn't mean he experiences the mitzvos just like you do. You're entitled an opinion to the contrary, but I'm wondering what your sources are.

I'd like to know where it says that tzaddikim experience e/t in a much different manner than us.
My proof is since the ta'amei hamitzos don't differentiate btw a tzaddik and others. Proof by omission.

[meshugener]

And...........           A baby dies due to bris.

[Drago]

@AsherO
I just realized that part of our difference with regards to tzadikim may stem from the historical chasidish / non-chasidish saga. (I am guessing you're Chabad)
In that case, I have no doubt you will be able to marshal many sources, but to continue the argument would simply be a continuation of the arguments from the last several hundred years.
Perhaps we can leave it as is? We have different views, both valid, and both worthy of respect (he asks hopefully)?

[Drago]

And...........           A baby dies due to bris.

Is that what this thread was about?