Author Topic: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach  (Read 5282 times)

Offline U-no-me!

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Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« on: March 08, 2012, 12:58:53 PM »
I was thinking it would be nice (what do you think?) if every day someone would would post a halacha in hilchos Pesach. In regards to the halacha of sheloshim yom.... the Chasam Sofer, the Pnei Yehoshua and possibly the Bach learn it's a chiyuv d'orayso. The shulchan Aruch Harav, Beis Yosef and the Levush, learn,  it's a takanah M'idrabanan, either way it's important. Maybe we can institute a rotation where every day someone else will post a halacha?
 I'll start

1. When purchasing meat for pesach, one should not say "I'm buying this meat for pesach" rather I"m buying this meat for yom tov, being that when you say it's for peasch it looks as if you are being makdish it for korban peasch.
B'dieved the meat is okay.

2. There is a minhag when doing bedikas chometz, to put 10 pieces of bread around the place of bedikah (prefferably someone else). Reason being that the brocha shouldn't be in vain, since today the houses are usualy clean before bedikah. The pieces on it's own should not be a K'zayis, But all of them together should add up to more than a K'zayis.
If after doing bedikah only 9 are found, Bedikas Chometz must be redone.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 01:26:25 PM by u-no-me- »
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2012, 01:03:27 PM »
I was thinking it would be nice (what do you think?) if every day someone would would post a halacha in hilchos Pesach. In regards to the halacha of sholshim yom.... the Chasam Sofer, the Pnei Yehoshua and possibly the Bach learn it's a chiyuv d'orayso. The shulchan Aruch Harav, Beis Yosef and the Levush, learn,  it's a takanah M'idrabanan, either way it's important. Maybe we can institute a rotation where every day someone else will post a halacha?
 I'll start

1. When purchasing meat for pesach, one should not say "I'm buying this meat for pesach" rather I"m buying this meat for yom tov, being that when you say it's for peasch it looks as if you are being makdish it for korban peasch.
B'dieved the meat is okay.

2. There is a minhag when doing bedikas chometz, to put 10 pieces of bread around the place of bedikah (prefferably someone else). Reason being that the brocha shouldn't be in vain, since today the houses are usualy clean before bedikah. The pieces on it's own should not be a K'zayis, But all of them together should add up to more than a K'zayis.
If after doing bedikah only 9 are found, Bedikas Chometz must be redone.


Great Idea!!!  Thank you! Now I was yotzei the Ramah in Siman 695:2 that says it is a good thing to learn torah before the seudah today :)
« Last Edit: March 08, 2012, 02:27:34 PM by jj1000 »
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Offline U-no-me!

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2012, 01:20:43 PM »
Great Idea!!!  Thank you!

Thanks. You on for tommorrow?
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2012, 01:33:05 PM »
Thanks. You on for tommorrow?
Assuming I am sober by then. its a deal :)
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Offline meshugener

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2012, 02:00:52 PM »
Like it! Gr8 idea!!
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Offline jj1000

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2012, 01:15:04 AM »
u-no-me- had started a great thing yesterday with a halacha that I can honestly say I and most people I told have never heard of so good on you! Here is mine for today anyone feel free to take claim for tomorrows...

   This should be practical for a lot of people on here: If a person will not be at home on the eve of the fourteenth (and is within 30 days before pessach), one should appoint a representative to perform the bedika for him (MB 436-1). If no representative is available than one should perform the bedika the evening before one leaves without a bracha, even if one will not return home the entire pesach (SA 436-1, MB-3). Some are of the opinion that the bedika should be performed as one would on the eve of the fourteenth (e.g. Bread, Candle, feather, etc.)(Kinyan Torah B'halacha Vol 2-82), others are of the opinion that they are not required (Minchas Yitzchock Vol. 8-35). 
 
  If one goes on a short trip within thirty days of pesach with intention to return before pesach, one need not perform a bedika prior to the trip (SA-1, MB-3).

2. There is a minhag when doing bedikas chometz, to put 10 pieces of bread around the place of bedikah (prefferably someone else). Reason being that the brocha shouldn't be in vain, since today the houses are usualy clean before bedikah. The pieces on it's own should not be a K'zayis, But all of them together should add up to more than a K'zayis.
If after doing bedikah only 9 are found, Bedikas Chometz must be redone.

 IIRC it says in kitzur that the reason some people put out pieces of bread to find during bedika is so the bracha won't be in vain. But that's a misconception because the bracha is for searching not finding, so even if nothing is found the bracha is good. Nevertheless it is a minhag yisroel and al pi kabbala to put out ten pieces...
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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2012, 04:41:35 AM »
IIRC it says in kitzur that the reason some people put out pieces of bread to find during bedika is so the bracha won't be in vain. But that's a misconception because the bracha is for searching not finding, so even if nothing is found the bracha is good. Nevertheless it is a minhag yisroel and al pi kabbala to put out ten pieces...

Well... I wasn't so clear. True, the reason is for the bedikah, but, if you have totatly cleaned the room already and there is deffinitely no chometz left i.e. you were bodek, than there is a question of Brocho Levatoloh. Therefore we put out the pieces so it should not be levatoloh. However, If you did not clean the room fully yet i.e. there is a possobility of finding chometz, than the brocho is not in vain even if nothing is found.
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Offline David B

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2012, 09:13:41 AM »
Well... I wasn't so clear. True, the reason is for the bedikah, but, if you have totatly cleaned the room already and there is deffinitely no chometz left i.e. you were bodek, than there is a question of Brocho Levatoloh. Therefore we put out the pieces so it should not be levatoloh. However, If you did not clean the room fully yet i.e. there is a possobility of finding chometz, than the brocho is not in vain even if nothing is found.


I like the idea that the Mitzvah is searching, not finding.

But what about the notion that the Bracha being made has nothing to do with searching or finding?  But rather 'Al Biur Chametz' -- wouldn't that support the notion that the bracha could be in vain if there were nothing found?

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2012, 05:41:07 PM »
I like the idea that the Mitzvah is searching, not finding.

But what about the notion that the Bracha being made has nothing to do with searching or finding?  But rather 'Al Biur Chametz' -- wouldn't that support the notion that the bracha could be in vain if there were nothing found?

Actually the mitzvah of bedikah, is part of the broader mitzvah of biur. That is why we make "al Biur Chametz". Bedika itself is such an integral part of the mitzvah of biur, that there is a discussion in the poskim if one fogot to make a bracha before bedika if one may do so before sreifas chametz or not.

Since the Brocha is "biur" that is precisely why the poskim write that it is not levatolah if one did not find anything.
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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2012, 05:57:25 PM »
Bedikah must be to "or haneir". A large fire i.e. 2 candles (or 2 wicks) may not be used, being that one may not be so careful when doing bedikah as he is afraid of causing a fire and also since one can not bring the fire close to small openings. if using a large fire, one is not even yotzei b'dieved.

If one forgot  to be bodek at night, he should do so in the morning with "or haneir" and not from the light of the sun.

In terms of "or haneir", there is a discussion if a flashlight may be used. R' moshe, Reb Elayshiv, R' Ahron hold it may be used. R' Shlomo zalman says one should only use a flashlight if one has no choice. Some Poskim (shiurim Metzuyanim) hold it is prefarrable to use a flashlight, since today we don't normally use candles under regular circumstances, one may possibly not check well if using a candle. The chut shani holds one should only use a flashlight together with a candle.

R' Yaakov Kamenetzky writes even if you are using a flashlight, it's prefferable to start the bedikah using a candle so that the brocho should be chal on the original takanah which is to use a candle.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2012, 06:01:04 PM by u-no-me- »
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Offline YudiG

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2012, 06:55:57 PM »
You mentioned meat for Pesach...always a good idea to check that the kosher for pesach meat counter isn't using latex gloves that are powdered as the powder is often wheat/kitniyos based and can go unnoticed unless an observant mashgiach/consumer notices....

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2012, 06:03:51 PM »
Chazal instituted the 4 cups of wine k'neged the 4 lishonos of geulah. One can not be motzei someone else, each must drink on their own. Everyone should have his own cup including small children.
There must be a Revi'is of wine in each cup. L'chatchila one should drink the full Revi'is, but in case of need one may drink rov. If one did not drink rov revi'is one is not yotzei.
A large cup which holds many Revi'is may be used for multiple people, as long there is a revi'is or at least rov revi'is for everyone.

The Ramban holds that the din of drinking the full revi'is or at least rov, goes on the cup therefore if one has a large cup which holds many revi'is he must at least drink rov kos. Therefore if someone is not up to drinking so much he should preferably use a smaller kos.

The 4th cup you must drink a full revi'is, so that you can make an "al hagefen".

Lchatchila one should drink the rov revi'is in one shot.
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Offline meshugener

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 06:00:17 PM »
The mishnah says: "ein maftirin achar hapesach afikomen" you shouldn't eat anything after the afikomen. That goes on till the time of eating the afikomen has passed. The time of eating the afikomen is till chatzos/midnight (which should be observed at least for the first night) but according to some shitos, including the ramba"n, its till the alos hashachar/sunrise.                    The last piece of matzah you eat is considered as afikomen.                  If, as it usually happens, you finished the hagadah, and its a few min to chatzos, and youre not ready to eat the afikomen cuz you still wanna eat the seudah, (which you can't do after afikomen) there's a grand idea in shu"t avnai nezer: take a piece of matzah and say: "if the halacha is in accordance with the shitos that the time is till chatzos, than this piece is the afikomen and my last piece of matzah before chatzos" so then, he can't eat anything till chatzos, but after chatzos he can keep on with the seudah since its no longer the time of eating the afikomen!, "and if the halacha is in accordance with the shita that the time is till the morning, than this is just plain piece of matzah" and he can keep up hith the seudah right away, since he still have plenty of time till the morning to eat the afikomen!                               And according to Briska Ruv, there's no need to "say" the t'nai, because the last piece of matzah is automatically considered as afikomen, no matter what he says. So if the hlacha is with shita #1 than THIS is his afikomen, since its the last piece of matzah before chatzos, and if the halacha is with shita #2, than this is NOT his afikomen, because he's still going to eat matzah before the alos hashachar!
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 06:14:12 PM by meshugener »
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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 06:38:20 PM »
The mishnah says: "ein maftirin achar hapesach afikomen" you shouldn't eat anything after the afikomen. That goes on till the time of eating the afikomen has passed. The time of eating the afikomen is till chatzos/midnight (which should be observed at least for the first night) but according to some shitos, including the ramba"n, its till the alos hashachar/sunrise.                    The last piece of matzah you eat is considered as afikomen.                  If, as it usually happens, you finished the hagadah, and its a few min to chatzos, and youre not ready to eat the afikomen cuz you still wanna eat the seudah, (which you can't do after afikomen) there's a grand idea in shu"t avnai nezer: take a piece of matzah and say: "if the halacha is in accordance with the shitos that the time is till chatzos, than this piece is the afikomen and my last piece of matzah before chatzos" so then, he can't eat anything till chatzos, but after chatzos he can keep on with the seudah since its no longer the time of eating the afikomen!, "and if the halacha is in accordance with the shita that the time is till the morning, than this is just plain piece of matzah" and he can keep up hith the seudah right away, since he still have plenty of time till the morning to eat the afikomen!                               And according to Briska Ruv, there's no need to "say" the t'nai, because the last piece of matzah is automatically considered as afikomen, no matter what he says. So if the hlacha is with shita #1 than THIS is his afikomen, since its the last piece of matzah before chatzos, and if the halacha is with shita #2, than this is NOT his afikomen, because he's still going to eat matzah before the alos hashachar!

Wow didn't know this before, very interesting. Takeh a meshugane chap. Where is this avnei nezer?
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Offline meshugener

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Re: Sheloshim Yom Kodem Hachag - Pesach
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2012, 08:17:24 PM »
I saw it last year, so you'll have to give me time to look around for it. If you have a Briska hagadah, you should easily find it. I probably saw it there.
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