Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem

[aygart]

It’s quite amusing how you think that you know best and everyone else are a bunch of fools

Not sure what your bone to pick is here, but everything he wrote there is as obvious as it gets.

[Happyguy]

How much does breakfast cost if it isn't included in the room rate?

[yfr bachur]

It’s quite amusing how you think that you know best and everyone else are a bunch of fools

Sorry, I do think that a person is naïve and a fool if he believes some random Israeli guy (who he doesn't know at all - and who's parnasa is dependent on selling the idea that a particular place is a high standard of kashrus), while the place has regular rabbanut

Oh, it's not just me, there are rabbanim who feel the same way about the WA.

but go on, fool yourself, you wouldn't lend that mashgiach $1000 bucks, but you trust his attitude of "I say that it's better than anything in the US, so shut up and go away".

Challenge: Name a Rav (in Kashrus) who says that the WA is OK. I'm sure they exist and if you name them we can all who they are and what standards they are known for, but at this point it's just nameless "people involved in mehadrin hotels", and the fact that "everybody" eats there (relying on the fact that "everybody" eats there)

[JlmBoi]

Sorry, I do think that a person is naïve and a fool if he believes some random Israeli guy (who he doesn't know at all - and who's parnasa is dependent on selling the idea that a particular place is a high standard of kashrus), while the place has regular rabbanut

Oh, it's not just me, there are rabbanim who feel the same way about the WA.

but go on, fool yourself, you wouldn't lend that mashgiach $1000 bucks, but you trust his attitude of "I say that it's better than anything in the US, so shut up and go away".

Challenge: Name a Rav (in Kashrus) who says that the WA is OK. I'm sure they exist and if you name them we can all who they are and what standards they are known for, but at this point it's just nameless "people involved in mehadrin hotels", and the fact that "everybody" eats there (relying on the fact that "everybody" eats there)

I agree with what you are saying but at the same time very respected people that are generally discerning in kashrus eat there, I'm quite certain they are relying on more than what you mentioned above and I would like to know what their information is based on.

[Afrages6]

Not sure what your bone to pick is here, but everything he wrote there is as obvious as it gets.

Sorry, I do think that a person is naïve and a fool if he believes some random Israeli guy (who he doesn't know at all - and who's parnasa is dependent on selling the idea that a particular place is a high standard of kashrus), while the place has regular rabbanut

Oh, it's not just me, there are rabbanim who feel the same way about the WA.

but go on, fool yourself, you wouldn't lend that mashgiach $1000 bucks, but you trust his attitude of "I say that it's better than anything in the US, so shut up and go away".

Challenge: Name a Rav (in Kashrus) who says that the WA is OK. I'm sure they exist and if you name them we can all who they are and what standards they are known for, but at this point it's just nameless "people involved in mehadrin hotels", and the fact that "everybody" eats there (relying on the fact that "everybody" eats there)

He all but confirmed what I am saying is true

[PlatinumGuy]

but go on, fool yourself, you wouldn't lend that mashgiach $1000 bucks, but you trust his attitude of "I say that it's better than anything in the US, so shut up and go away".

We also kill people based on the word of two strangers whom you would never lend money to. The two have nothing to do with each other.

[aygart]

I find that many people who come from Chul, and complain about Kashurus in Israel being complicated are confused by things they never think of in the US (or at least the way it's presented in Israel) combined with their naivete about Israeli salesmanship.

For example, many Mehadrin hechsherim in the US will never give a hechsher on a place that has improperly dressed female wait staff. You just don't think about it.
Even the OU has standards about what hotels it will certify. However no one in the US will advertise that "really all the food comes from the OU, but (because I'm cheap or the hotel doesn't fit OU standards) the hechsher is Rabbi Ploni. We just rely (or don't) on Rabbi Ploni. In Israel advertising this way is standard practice.

In other words in the US, a place has a Hechsher. You then check if you rely on the people involved in that hechsher and their standards.
In Israel, a place has a hechsher, and for advertising purposes state that really the RAW MATERIALS come from a higher standard. At the end of the day it comes down to if you rely on the people involved in the hechsher to be insistent that all raw materials come from the higher standard, and to uphold a mehadrin level of kashrus throughout the preparation and serving of the food.

A great example of this in the US would be if there is a restaurant that has a Triangle K and they tell you the reason is because they have shows that the OU won't certify with. They then advertise with a picture of a mashgiach who never worked for any hechsher other than the Triangle K telling you that the standards are the same as OU and they only use Meal Mart meats (even though they serve cuts of meat that Meal Mart doesn't sell) and you know nothing about him other than that once upon a time he learned in Chaim Berlin.

[yfr bachur]

I agree with what you are saying but at the same time very respected people that are generally discerning in kashrus eat there, I'm quite certain they are relying on more than what you mentioned above and I would like to know what their information is based on.

I agree with your point completely. Has anyone on DDF asked any of these people if it's true that they ate there and if so what are they relying on?
I happen to know (first hand) of a respected American-Israeli rav who was asked by one of his talmidim to come to the WA for a Shabbos Bar Mitzva. He agreed on condition that they get real Mehadrin food for him (Hadar Geula or the like). Post facto, he regrets that he went there, for most people only heard that he went to the WA for Shabbos, not that arranged separate food for himself. (Why he couldn't tell the talmid not to eat there is a separate question).

It seems that the discussion over the WA boils down to your question. What are people who eat there relying on, other than Rav Nafcha's say so. The basic response has been "Kashrus in Israel is so complicated", "Kashrus is full of politics", and "You're such a know it all, do you think we are all fools?"

It's not like we (the questioners) are saying that if it's not Eida it's horrible, but give us at least something to believe in. Jerusalem Gardens Hotel has a well regarded restaurant - Skylines, which along with the hotel cafe, is Rabbanut Mehadrin, OU Israel, AND Rav Weiner from Ramat Eshkol...while WA is Rabanut (with questions about the exact level of kashrus and if to believe the mashgiach's claims)

[yfr bachur]

He all but confirmed what I am saying is true

Why don't you explain why I'm wrong, instead of calling me a know it all...

[shiframeir]

Sorry, I do think that a person is naïve and a fool if he believes some random Israeli guy (who he doesn't know at all - and who's parnasa is dependent on selling the idea that a particular place is a high standard of kashrus), while the place has regular rabbanut

I don't get it, does this Rabbi Nafcha get paid based on how well the Waldorf does/how many frum jews come? i assume the rabbanut pays all based on seniority/hours etc and there is no bonus from the hotel (big assumption) and if so there is no reason not to believe him when he says that though the hotel itself only pays/signs up for a regular rabbanut (for whatever reason instead of rabbanut mehadrin), he took it upon himself to make sure the standards actually roughly equal mehadrin (perhaps with a foreign cheese here or there he can warn you about). ed echad neeman be'issurin.

[gross5g]

I don't get it, does this Rabbi Nafcha get paid based on how well the Waldorf does/how many frum jews come? i assume the rabbanut pays all based on seniority/hours etc and there is no bonus from the hotel (big assumption) and if so there is no reason not to believe him when he says that though the hotel itself only pays/signs up for a regular rabbanut (for whatever reason instead of rabbanut mehadrin), he took it upon himself to make sure the standards actually roughly equal mehadrin (perhaps with a foreign cheese here or there he can warn you about). ed echad neeman be'issurin.

He is a paid employee so imagine if he tells everyone that really it's not a good hechsher and people start staying somewhere else or not eating the restaurant during the week or meals shabbos don't think they would keep him on staff.

[mochjas]

He is a paid employee so imagine if he tells everyone that really it's not a good hechsher and people start staying somewhere else or not eating the restaurant during the week or meals shabbos don't think they would keep him on staff.

isnt every mashgiach a paid employee?

[Afrages6]

Why don't you explain why I'm wrong, instead of calling me a know it all...

Halacha gives someone wide breadth to eat in a place with a hashgacha, as far as I can tell there is absolutely zero basis for the people who instruct American students and the like as to what they can and can’t eat. So anyone that eats in a place with a hechsher from a rov is on pretty solid ground in the first place. You can go Reb elchanan in קונטרס דברי סופרים סוף סימן ד׳

[aygart]

Halacha gives someone wide breadth to eat in a place with a hashgacha, as far as I can tell there is absolutely zero basis for the people who instruct American students and the like as to what they can and can’t eat. So anyone that eats in a place with a hechsher from a rov is on pretty solid ground in the first place. You can go Reb elchanan in קונטרס דברי סופרים סוף סימן ד׳

The hasgocha from the rov is telling you plain rabbanut

[Afrages6]

The hasgocha from the rov is telling you plain rabbanut

Understood, and if people want to listen to that and eat it, no one has the right to call them naive.

[shiframeir]

The hasgocha from the rov is telling you plain rabbanut

not this rov.

He is a paid employee so imagine if he tells everyone that really it's not a good hechsher and people start staying somewhere else or not eating the restaurant during the week or meals shabbos don't think they would keep him on staff.

the question is i assume the Rabbanut payment system doesnt engender conflicts of interest where a mashgiach's pay or job is tied to the success of his restaurant. and of course he wouldnt say this isnt a good hechsher, he could simply say this is a rabbanut food and beverage kitchen and it follows the rabbanut rules. but he says that he happens to be able to keep it at a higher level, and i dont see a reason why people can't trust him. u could try to argue that he gets value out of the gayva of being at a big pricy hotel, or maybe he gets a room at the waldorf for free as part of his service? but these things are not enough in my mind to go against the general mashgiach ne'emanus we give to people in america, pesach programs or elsewhere.

[aygart]

Understood, and if people want to listen to that and eat it, no one has the right to call them naive.

I don't think he is calling those willing to eat there as plain rabbanut naive. I think he is referring to those who eat there considering it to be equal to hechsherim considered to be mehadrin.

[gross5g]

not this rov.  the question is i assume the Rabbanut payment system doesnt engender conflicts of interest where a mashgiach's pay or job is tied to the success of his restaurant. and of course he wouldnt say this isnt a good hechsher, he could simply say this is a rabbanut food and beverage kitchen and it follows the rabbanut rules. but he says that he happens to be able to keep it at a higher level, and i dont see a reason why people can't trust him. u could try to argue that he gets value out of the gayva of being at a big pricy hotel, or maybe he gets a room at the waldorf for free as part of his service? but these things are not enough in my mind to go against the general mashgiach ne'emanus we give to people in america, pesach programs or elsewhere.

Hotel and basic restaurant is different ,  that there would be a much smaller clientele willing to stay  at a hotel if they can't eat there and therefore besides the gayva (read the article he puts out about himself every year) hotel has more to lose if he scares people away so he has more negius .
All people want is for him to be strait up and not play that all Americans are naive and even Stam rabinut is better then anything from chul so he can basically lie and say everything is mehadrin when anyone who does half decent research will realize it's not.  And if you call him out he shouldn't be such a Baal gayva and say either trust me or don't or look at e/o eating here who does trust me.

This can be easily done by letting in many local rabbanim from the American neighborhoods to just check out what's going on but he refuses time and time again bc again he's the machsir with an attitude of either trust me or don't I don't need anyone else to approve it. He doesn't want people to say  then rav so and so is the one who approved it.

There were places that the mashgiach worked with and  let rabbi Weiner check out what goes on (citadel,  mamila ) and you can call the vaad hakashrus and ask about it and they will inquire about what it is currently as the mashgiach worked with them and therefore they trust what he's saying what you can and can't eat.

The Waldorf unfortunately there's nobody home to talk to and sadly not too many Americans care for whatever reason so no need to change what goes on.

[aygart]

and sadly not too many Americans care for whatever reason so no need to change what goes on.

I take exception to this line.

[shiframeir]

Hotel and basic restaurant is different ,  that there would be a much smaller clientele willing to stay  at a hotel if they can't eat there and therefore besides the gayva (read the article he puts out about himself every year) hotel has more to lose if he scares people away so he has more negius.

i dont understand this point, the hotel wants whatever clientele it wants, if the mashgiach doesnt get a cut this can't affect ne'emanus, unless it affects ne'emanus for a mashgiach in an edah chareidis hotel too.

your other points are specific about this mashgiach personally being not trustworthy. is this from your firsthand dealings with him, or from someone else trustworthy? how do i verify this?
why should i, a random one of the many americans who don't really care/can't be bothered to deal with politics believe that this mashgiach is a liar, especially when i have friends who saw great rabbis eating from the buffet?