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http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/88534

Breakfast:
Paying guests get breakfast for free. If you are staying on points you need to be gold or diamond to get free breakfast. (source)

Parking:
Complimentary (No longer, is now 60sh for self park - Drago)

Shuls Nearby:
Great Synagogue - Approx. 7 minute walk
Kotel around 15min walk thru the mall & arab Shuk (Only suggested when soldiers are present like friday night on the way home)
Hotel has a Shul in the basement

Hechsher: Plain Rabbanut Yerushayim (not mehadrin)
hechsherim in isreal
whatever your rabbi says you can eat, someone else's rabbi says is treif

If anyone is planing on staying at Waldorf and not eating the free breakfast (Hechsher, Early flight, etc') please PM shimino1

If you get free drinks vouchers and don't use them, I'll buy it off you for 10 shek per voucher.
PM shimino1

If anyone is planing on staying at Waldorf and not eating the free breakfast please PM dragoddfer, and he may be able to pay for the breakfast.

« Last edited by Drago on December 20, 2021, 03:09:28 PM »

Author Topic: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem  (Read 834571 times)

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5100 on: July 26, 2021, 01:02:34 PM »
not this rov.  the question is i assume the Rabbanut payment system doesnt engender conflicts of interest where a mashgiach's pay or job is tied to the success of his restaurant. and of course he wouldnt say this isnt a good hechsher, he could simply say this is a rabbanut food and beverage kitchen and it follows the rabbanut rules. but he says that he happens to be able to keep it at a higher level, and i dont see a reason why people can't trust him. u could try to argue that he gets value out of the gayva of being at a big pricy hotel, or maybe he gets a room at the waldorf for free as part of his service? but these things are not enough in my mind to go against the general mashgiach ne'emanus we give to people in america, pesach programs or elsewhere.
AFAIK the rabanut mashgichim are paid direct from the resteraunt/hotel. I believe there is some reform in the works. If there is any naivete here it's that there is no conflict of interest. They are literally his employer.
Understood, and if people want to listen to that and eat it, no one has the right to call them naive.
Noone here is calling that naive. Many people who eat there wouldn't even eat in Rabanut mehadrin places. People regard it as very high level kashrus. Either I'm deaf and blind, or there is some big secret I don't know. I can't understand how people can gloss over such an attitude from a mashgiach. If everything is OK they have 0 to lose from letting Rabbi Weiner in.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 01:06:54 PM by JlmBoi »
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Offline aygart

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5101 on: July 26, 2021, 01:06:14 PM »
AFAIK the rabanut mashgichim are paid direct from the resteraunt/hotel. I believe there is some reform in the works. If there is any naivete here it's that there is no conflict of interest. They are literally his employer.
It is also atypical for an establishment to be parading the mashgiach in front of the public by their PR firm.
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Offline Afrages6

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Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5102 on: July 26, 2021, 01:15:02 PM »
If everything is OK they have 0 to lose from letting Rabbi Weiner in.

100% incorrect, why do rabbanim need other rabbanim to say that their “Kashrus” is ok?
« Last Edit: July 26, 2021, 01:18:55 PM by Afrages6 »

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5103 on: July 26, 2021, 01:21:16 PM »
100% incorrect, why do rabbanim need other rabbanim to say that their “Kashrus” is ok?
I didn't say they need I said they have nothing to lose. You need to understand that this is like someone selling you a Honda and claiming it's a Porsche. If he has any נאמנות it's that it's a Honda, nothing more.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5104 on: July 26, 2021, 01:31:28 PM »
I didn't say they need I said they have nothing to lose. You need to understand that this is like someone selling you a Honda and claiming it's a Porsche. If he has any נאמנות it's that it's a Honda, nothing more.
And the guy never worked on the insides of a Porsche either.

Like this

A great example of this in the US would be if there is a restaurant that has a Triangle K and they tell you the reason is because they have shows that the OU won't certify with. They then advertise with a picture of a mashgiach who never worked for any hechsher other than the Triangle K telling you that the standards are the same as OU and they only use Meal Mart meats (even though they serve cuts of meat that Meal Mart doesn't sell) and you know nothing about him other than that once upon a time he learned in Chaim Berlin.
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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5105 on: July 26, 2021, 02:20:39 PM »
I didn't say they need I said they have nothing to lose. You need to understand that this is like someone selling you a Honda and claiming it's a Porsche. If he has any נאמנות it's that it's a Honda, nothing more.
But why should he let Rabbi Weiner in if enough Chutzniks eat there already? Hes got nothing to gain.

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5106 on: July 26, 2021, 04:34:23 PM »
But why should he let Rabbi Weiner in if enough Chutzniks eat there already? Hes got nothing to gain.
He has nothing to gain besides showing he has nothing to hide. How much is that actually worth? I'm not sure. Maybe people don't mind shady things if they taste good enough.
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Offline shiframeir

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5107 on: July 26, 2021, 05:03:59 PM »
He has nothing to gain besides showing he has nothing to hide. How much is that actually worth? I'm not sure. Maybe people don't mind shady things if they taste good enough.
this is the same argument for having trump release his tax records. the mashgiach doesn't know if there might be something that he missed/could be taken the wrong way, or a junior mashgiach messed up.
Separately, where is your source that this guy refused having anyone look into the kitchen/standards?

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5108 on: July 26, 2021, 05:09:09 PM »
the mashgiach doesn't know if there might be something that he missed
Very possibly the case considering that he has no experience administering a mehadrin level hechsher.
My feeling is that it can make sense for someone to say it meets their standards. That is whatever their standards are. To say that it meets the standards typically used as mehadrin in Israel seems like a very far reach.
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Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5109 on: July 26, 2021, 05:35:37 PM »


Separately, where is your source that this guy refused having anyone look into the kitchen/standards?
Adraba! I wish someone did! I spoke to him and he wouldn't answer a single thing besides giving me his unrealistic list of standards they keep to. I have no issue with low standards, but they need to be transparent. It's not his private affairs, it's a service to the public. If anyone did look into it, wouldn't the hotel advertise that? Anything would look more legit than this guy.
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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5110 on: July 26, 2021, 08:02:11 PM »
this is the same argument for having trump release his tax records. the mashgiach doesn't know if there might be something that he missed/could be taken the wrong way, or a junior mashgiach messed up.
Unlike with Trump tax records Any Yirai Hashem Wouldn't have an issue with anybody making sure that he didn't miss anything, or somebody else messed up...

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5111 on: July 26, 2021, 08:43:03 PM »
Unlike with Trump tax records Any Yirai Hashem Wouldn't have an issue with anybody making sure that he didn't miss anything, or somebody else messed up...

Sort of because that can cause many operational issues and prevent the hechsher from running smoothly
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Offline yfr bachur

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5112 on: July 27, 2021, 02:03:59 AM »
@Afrages6 You are not a fool and not naïve. Your standard in kashrus, based on what we've read from you, is that you trust any rav who states that a particular place is Kosher. Good for you. There is definitely support for such a standard in halacha. You can go ahead and eat in almost any place in Israel, whether its Eida, Rabbanut Rechovot Mehadrin  or Rabbanut Kfar Kassem. You probably will eat from every hechsher in the US too. You have a standard, and you are entitled to it. Enjoy! (I'm not trolling, enjoy, but the shayla about the WA is not applicable to your standards)

The discussion about the WA is for everyone else, who want an authenticated level of Mehadrin Kashrus, who don't just trust anyone who puts "Rav" in front of their name , or who have "Head Mashgiach" embroidered on their shirt.
In the current Minhag of most of Klal Yisroel, based on a takana from the Va'ad Arbah Aratzos is that we usually do not rely on the din of Eid Echad Ne'eman BeIsurin when the product is being sold. (If we would rely on it, you wouldn't need hashgacha at all, just self certification!). Rather, we rely on the certification of a trusted Rav, who we know is qualified to provide certification on the particular production, whos standards we rely on. For example, the Rav of Birmingham Alabama may have the experience/training to provide hashgacha on the local bakery but be wholly unqualified to certify the large factory down the road. (needs much greater technical training, knowledge of how industrial equipment needs to be kashered ect..) We also may not accept his standards. He may allow chalav  stam when we don't eat that, he may not check for bugs to my standard, he may not require sufficient safeguards to prevent bishul akum. (When I was twelve, I spent the summer in a small OOT community in the NE US. The head of the school provided kashrus service to local stores. I clearly recall the non-Jewish cook of the school relighting the pilot light of the stove - which the head of the school was relying on to prevent bishul akum!! If that's what went on IN HIS school, what do you think the level of supervision was in the stores???)

Modern Kashrus needs transparency. No one is asking for daily spot checks by the Eida or Rubin or even R' Weiner. Just someone we rely on to vouch for the claims of the mashgiach and to tell us that he's reliable. Until then all we have are third hand stories of unnamed "great rabbis eating from the buffet". If he really keeps the standards he claims, he has nothing to lose, and much to gain (larger customer base, the end of threads like this one...) on the other hand, if someone coming in would revel that he is not keeping his self claimed standards, he has everything to lose...

Please, tell us who checked the kashrus in the WA. Who's says R' Nafcha is reliable to keep mehadrin standards. We want to know. Name Names. Until you do, I will maintain my stance that anyone who believes that the WA is "...the best most reliable Mehadrin hotel in Israel..." is naïve. Especially since we named many other hotels that either have Mehadrin Kashrus or were checked by a trusted kashrus person (RSW) and confirmed to keep to mehadrin standards.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 02:37:49 AM by yfr bachur »

Offline gross5g

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5113 on: July 27, 2021, 02:05:41 AM »
Adraba! I wish someone did! I spoke to him and he wouldn't answer a single thing besides giving me his unrealistic list of standards they keep to. I have no issue with low standards, but they need to be transparent. It's not his private affairs, it's a service to the public. If anyone did look into it, wouldn't the hotel advertise that? Anything would look more legit than this guy.
I have had many dealings with him and the hotel Managements as I have been loving here for past 9 years and do a lot of bookings for people there.
I was trying to help out with getting in rabbi Weiner or other rabbanim and he was not interested , as I stated before he is the machshir and wants to keep it that way and doesn't want anyone to say otherwise.
He claims they wanted money or raabanut won't let  him .but I know for a fact that's a false statement
Again vaad kashrus was able to work with mashgiach in citadel and maamila and go in and make a few changes.

As for rabbanim eating there from most of my dealings it's bc originally it was owned by reichman so they just assumed he had control over the food establishment there as well (which he did not ) so must be good. Which is why after it was sold they put out all this pr that nothing changed with the kashrus they had. Because then people started asking questions.

Find me a chashiv rav from here  who knows the ins and outs that would say you can eat there Stam no problem anything you want. They can tell you specific things you may be able to or if you have to go bc parents are there what to avoid or how to ask questions to see what's going on.

Again people wouldn't touch Stam rabinut and most of the more frum oilim wouldnt go to rabanut mehadrin but there it's acceptable bc Waldorf has a mashgiach . Well So do those places so go to any restaurant and just call mashgiach and eat there and enjoy.

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5114 on: July 27, 2021, 04:47:50 AM »


So they just assumed he had control over the food establishment there...
Find me a chashiv rav from here  who knows the ins and outs that would say you can eat there...
Again people wouldn't touch Stam rabinut and most of the more frum oilim wouldnt go to rabanut mehadrin but there it's acceptable bc Waldorf has a mashgiach .
Every hotel with a Teuda in Israel has a mashgiach. This is the definition of naive.
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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5115 on: July 27, 2021, 05:43:21 AM »
I have had many dealings with him and the hotel Managements as I have been loving here for past 9 years and do a lot of bookings for people there.
I was trying to help out with getting in rabbi Weiner or other rabbanim and he was not interested , as I stated before he is the machshir and wants to keep it that way and doesn't want anyone to say otherwise.
He claims they wanted money or raabanut won't let  him .but I know for a fact that's a false statement
Trying not to take sides here, just maybe the WA doesn't want anyone checking out the kitchens? As I said before, the fact is that many ppl have no issue eating there whatever their reasons are. So if it isn't broken why fix it? At the end of the day, the WA have the final word not R' Nafcha on who comes in to the kitchen.

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5116 on: July 27, 2021, 10:08:16 AM »
Again vaad kashrus was able to work with mashgiach in citadel and maamila and go in and make a few changes.
I'm still trying to figure out the israel hotel scene, are you saying that citadel and mamilla are at a good level/equal to an OU in america or similar?

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5117 on: July 27, 2021, 10:28:25 AM »
Every hotel with a Teuda in Israel has a mashgiach. This is the definition of naive.
I have spoken to a lot of Mashgichim in Israeli hotels. A lot will tell you, these products are Mehadrin, these aren't etc. That is the difference, where R' Nafcha is telling you that everything is Mehadrin.

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5118 on: July 27, 2021, 12:51:30 PM »
I'm still trying to figure out the israel hotel scene, are you saying that citadel and mamilla are at a good level/equal to an OU in america or similar?
Chicken/meat is not glatt other than Yot.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5119 on: July 27, 2021, 01:30:41 PM »
@Afrages6 You are not a fool and not naïve. Your standard in kashrus, based on what we've read from you, is that you trust any rav who states that a particular place is Kosher. Good for you. There is definitely support for such a standard in halacha. You can go ahead and eat in almost any place in Israel, whether its Eida, Rabbanut Rechovot Mehadrin  or Rabbanut Kfar Kassem. You probably will eat from every hechsher in the US too. You have a standard, and you are entitled to it. Enjoy! (I'm not trolling, enjoy, but the shayla about the WA is not applicable to your standards)

The discussion about the WA is for everyone else, who want an authenticated level of Mehadrin Kashrus, who don't just trust anyone who puts "Rav" in front of their name , or who have "Head Mashgiach" embroidered on their shirt.
In the current Minhag of most of Klal Yisroel, based on a takana from the Va'ad Arbah Aratzos is that we usually do not rely on the din of Eid Echad Ne'eman BeIsurin when the product is being sold. (If we would rely on it, you wouldn't need hashgacha at all, just self certification!). Rather, we rely on the certification of a trusted Rav, who we know is qualified to provide certification on the particular production, whos standards we rely on. For example, the Rav of Birmingham Alabama may have the experience/training to provide hashgacha on the local bakery but be wholly unqualified to certify the large factory down the road. (needs much greater technical training, knowledge of how industrial equipment needs to be kashered ect..) We also may not accept his standards. He may allow chalav  stam when we don't eat that, he may not check for bugs to my standard, he may not require sufficient safeguards to prevent bishul akum. (When I was twelve, I spent the summer in a small OOT community in the NE US. The head of the school provided kashrus service to local stores. I clearly recall the non-Jewish cook of the school relighting the pilot light of the stove - which the head of the school was relying on to prevent bishul akum!! If that's what went on IN HIS school, what do you think the level of supervision was in the stores???)

Modern Kashrus needs transparency. No one is asking for daily spot checks by the Eida or Rubin or even R' Weiner. Just someone we rely on to vouch for the claims of the mashgiach and to tell us that he's reliable. Until then all we have are third hand stories of unnamed "great rabbis eating from the buffet". If he really keeps the standards he claims, he has nothing to lose, and much to gain (larger customer base, the end of threads like this one...) on the other hand, if someone coming in would revel that he is not keeping his self claimed standards, he has everything to lose...

Please, tell us who checked the kashrus in the WA. Who's says R' Nafcha is reliable to keep mehadrin standards. We want to know. Name Names. Until you do, I will maintain my stance that anyone who believes that the WA is "...the best most reliable Mehadrin hotel in Israel..." is naïve. Especially since we named many other hotels that either have Mehadrin Kashrus or were checked by a trusted kashrus person (RSW) and confirmed to keep to mehadrin standards.
Here you go again being condescending, you are questioning why people put trust into a certain person. The hotel is jam packed, the restaurant is jam packed - all you are doing here is trying to put down people that eat there as either unknowledgeable or flat out not caring.

He has no need for someone like rabbi Weiner to come in because it can only lead to problems from him. The Waldorf is doing what works for them, they are full and have no problem selling thousands of Y”t meals for 250 a piece.

You obviously won’t eat there until stuff change for your liking, but that doesn’t mean that other people who feel comfortable eating there as it fits to their mehadrin standards are naive. And to call them as such is just confirmation of your condescending attitude towards those who disagree with you.