Topic Wiki

http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/88534

Breakfast:
Paying guests get breakfast for free. If you are staying on points you need to be gold or diamond to get free breakfast. (source)

Parking:
Complimentary (No longer, is now 60sh for self park - Drago)

Shuls Nearby:
Great Synagogue - Approx. 7 minute walk
Kotel around 15min walk thru the mall & arab Shuk (Only suggested when soldiers are present like friday night on the way home)
Hotel has a Shul in the basement

Hechsher: Plain Rabbanut Yerushayim (not mehadrin)
hechsherim in isreal
whatever your rabbi says you can eat, someone else's rabbi says is treif

If anyone is planing on staying at Waldorf and not eating the free breakfast (Hechsher, Early flight, etc') please PM shimino1

If you get free drinks vouchers and don't use them, I'll buy it off you for 10 shek per voucher.
PM shimino1

If anyone is planing on staying at Waldorf and not eating the free breakfast please PM dragoddfer, and he may be able to pay for the breakfast.

« Last edited by Drago on December 20, 2021, 03:09:28 PM »

Author Topic: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem  (Read 835669 times)

Offline gross5g

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2016
  • Posts: 453
  • Total likes: 24
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5120 on: July 27, 2021, 01:41:14 PM »
I'm still trying to figure out the israel hotel scene, are you saying that citadel and mamilla are at a good level/equal to an OU in america or similar?
Call rabbi Weiner/ vaad hakashrus as they are the ones who will tell you what place is acceptable according to american standards that's why the kashrus started , to help out the American clientele keep to their standards and in sorry to say it the Waldorf is not in that standard as much as people eat there , again most of it comes from people being naive from when reichman owned it and never doing due diligence now. And now everyone keeps piggy backing in each other eating there w/o asking their own questions.

Offline JlmBoi

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2020
  • Posts: 802
  • Total likes: 400
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5121 on: July 27, 2021, 01:48:11 PM »


Here you go again being condescending, you are questioning why people put trust into a certain person, other people who feel comfortable eating there as it fits to their mehadrin standards are naive
He is saying what is the logical explanation for considering it mehadrin standards? I haven't heard a solid one yet. Why is that condescending?
The chiddush of DDF is the way Dan Deals with all us crazies 🤪

Offline JlmBoi

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jul 2020
  • Posts: 802
  • Total likes: 400
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5122 on: July 27, 2021, 01:48:39 PM »
I have spoken to a lot of Mashgichim in Israeli hotels. A lot will tell you, these products are Mehadrin, these aren't etc. That is the difference, where R' Nafcha is telling you that everything is Mehadrin.
Exactly
The chiddush of DDF is the way Dan Deals with all us crazies 🤪

Offline yfr bachur

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Sep 2018
  • Posts: 242
  • Total likes: 183
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Yerusholayim
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5123 on: July 27, 2021, 09:02:31 PM »
@Afrages6 I put a lot of effort in to writing thought out, intelligent, clear posts. I would not put in this effort to be condescending to people.
Here's the problem. Many people come from Chul, patronize the WA, and eat there. They admit that they don't understand the israeli Kashrus system, are confused by it, and in general have difficulty finding out what's what. Members of this forum who live in Israel, and have had the time and/or know the local resources to research the Kashrus properly, have basically stated Peh Echad that the situation in the WA is not what the Chutznikim think it is, and are boggled how people who otherwise keep high standards of mehadrin kashrus are failing to find proper information.
The poor fellow who started the current cycle (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=14752.msg2466713#msg2466713) is from the states, so unless he names his sources and we see for the first time that someone reliable says that the WA is truly on Mehadrin standards, all us locals see that another US customer got fooled, and badly this time.

I don't know why you are so insistent that we have gotten things wrong. You have not provided ONE source for the local view being wrong. Not the name of a Rav in the US, nor one in Israel, not the name of the "great rabbi" that ate from the buffet (who may have been only eating the cut fruit and Veg AND Iber Maasering BTW) NOTHING, Just name calling and general allegations that we locals don't know what we are talking about. If you have info that the local rabbanim don't have, then by all means, please share it with us!
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 09:05:54 PM by yfr bachur »

Offline shiframeir

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2012
  • Posts: 1579
  • Total likes: 87
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Programs: spg gold. nothing else. sigh.
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5124 on: July 27, 2021, 10:01:54 PM »
@Afrages6 I put a lot of effort in to writing thought out, intelligent, clear posts. I would not put in this effort to be condescending to people.
Here's the problem. Many people come from Chul, patronize the WA, and eat there. They admit that they don't understand the israeli Kashrus system, are confused by it, and in general have difficulty finding out what's what. Members of this forum who live in Israel, and have had the time and/or know the local resources to research the Kashrus properly, have basically stated Peh Echad that the situation in the WA is not what the Chutznikim think it is, and are boggled how people who otherwise keep high standards of mehadrin kashrus are failing to find proper information.
The poor fellow who started the current cycle (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=14752.msg2466713#msg2466713) is from the states, so unless he names his sources and we see for the first time that someone reliable says that the WA is truly on Mehadrin standards, all us locals see that another US customer got fooled, and badly this time.
nuuu @dandu16 can u give us any reference for who looked into the Waldorf mehadrin standards?

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14534
  • Total likes: 2236
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5125 on: July 28, 2021, 05:21:47 AM »
nuuu @dandu16 can u give us any reference for who looked into the Waldorf mehadrin standards?

R' Efrati told me that Nafcha (who is the Waldrof mashgiach) is bar samcha, and I trust both of them more than Rabbi Weiner.

IMHO the source of the confusion is that some adopted a standard that is much higher than OU and oftentimes not grounded in reality. It seems they 'research' the Israeli places but just take the OU at face value. Of course that would give the appearance things are simpler in the US... Did they ever ask Rabbi Weiner to look into OU restaurants in NY or LA? I'm sure he would find similar issues.

As an example, Rabbi Weiner 'doesn't recommend' meat from R Machpud's shechita, unless it is from a slaughter house he specifically 'looked into'. Now, every one of the Machpud slaughter houses he looked into he says is OK, but the ones he didn't, aren't. If you apply the same standard to the OU, he 'wouldn't recommend' any meat in America - that's totally fine and an admirable chumra, but to look down on those who do eat at the WAJ is a step too far.


The OU certifies both Pas Akum & Cholov Akum which are certainly not 'Mehadrin' (according to the Poskim who allowed them in the first place) -  part of why much of the Israeli kashrus ecosystem considers OU worse than even standard Rabbanut, even though there are
some things the OU is more stringent on.

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline gross5g

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Jul 2016
  • Posts: 453
  • Total likes: 24
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5126 on: July 28, 2021, 09:43:44 AM »
R' Efrati told me that Nafcha (who is the Waldrof mashgiach) is bar samcha, and I trust both of them more than Rabbi Weiner.

IMHO the source of the confusion is that some adopted a standard that is much higher than OU and oftentimes not grounded in reality. It seems they 'research' the Israeli places but just take the OU at face value. Of course that would give the appearance things are simpler in the US... Did they ever ask Rabbi Weiner to look into OU restaurants in NY or LA? I'm sure he would find similar issues.

As an example, Rabbi Weiner 'doesn't recommend' meat from R Machpud's shechita, unless it is from a slaughter house he specifically 'looked into'. Now, every one of the Machpud slaughter houses he looked into he says is OK, but the ones he didn't, aren't. If you apply the same standard to the OU, he 'wouldn't recommend' any meat in America - that's totally fine and an admirable chumra, but to look down on those who do eat at the WAJ is a step too far.


The OU certifies both Pas Akum & Cholov Akum which are certainly not 'Mehadrin' (according to the Poskim who allowed them in the first place) -  part of why much of the Israeli kashrus ecosystem considers OU worse than even standard Rabbanut, even though there are
some things the OU is more stringent on.

Exactly Rabbi weiner only works with facts not speculation or that some rabbi holds its ok or eats it, he consults rabbi kuber (who used to run the OU here)and others and if he doesnt know he will say i dont know i need to look into it . And machpud south america if I recall is no good according to most people here even rav machpud says its much harder to keep up with what goes on there vs the Israel or polish run.


Another example would be the levine meat from argentina Rabbi weiner says to avoid but some local rabbanim here say its ok ,

Is it so bad to be honest and say he only recommends what he can say 100% is ok.

Thats all people want from rav nafcha who besides isnt transparent goes around calling himself Rav ELyashiv never by his last name nafcha to make it look more prestigious of a name. To be strait up and honest on all the dealings. Not to use a blanket its all good and if he gets called out walks away.

People want to feel confident on who is giving them their information not a shady business man who you would never lend 10 shekel to.



Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14334
  • Total likes: 9585
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5127 on: July 28, 2021, 11:06:10 AM »

As an example, Rabbi Weiner 'doesn't recommend' meat from R Machpud's shechita, unless it is from a slaughter house he specifically 'looked into'. Now, every one of the Machpud slaughter houses he looked into he says is OK, but the ones he didn't, aren't. If you apply the same standard to the OU, he 'wouldn't recommend' any meat in America - that's totally fine and an admirable chumra, but to look down on those who do eat at the WAJ is a step too far.

Does he "not recommend" or is he "unable to make a recommendation"?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14534
  • Total likes: 2236
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5128 on: July 28, 2021, 12:09:38 PM »
Not to use a blanket its all good
Nafcha is the Rav Hamachshir who was chosen specifically because the owners wanted good supervision. Of course from his perspective everything is OK, if it wasn't he wouldn't let it there.

Does he "not recommend" or is he "unable to make a recommendation"?

The distinction isn't always as clear as it should be. I never spoke to him personally so I don't really know, but my understanding from the rumors is that originally he couldn't recommend the WAJ because they wouldn't let him into the kitchen at all, at which point he directed those who asked him to refrain from eating there from lack of knowledge, but eventually they did give him. some access and it switched to hard not-recommended.

I've yet to hear of any specific Kashrus problem or kula. Of course, if somebody knows of such problem, it's a chiyuv to advertise it...

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14534
  • Total likes: 2236
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5129 on: July 28, 2021, 12:12:14 PM »
Exactly Rabbi weiner only works with facts not speculation or that some rabbi holds its ok or eats it
Come on. He either shechts every cow personally and doesn't let it leave his eyesight (and even then it's relying on Roiv and not absolute facts) or he's trusting others to one extent or another.

This is how Kashrus becomes complicated. Making up problems out of thin air.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14334
  • Total likes: 9585
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5130 on: July 28, 2021, 12:38:20 PM »
Nafcha is the Rav Hamachshir who was chosen specifically because the owners wanted good supervision. Of course from his perspective everything is OK, if it wasn't he wouldn't let it there.

The distinction isn't always as clear as it should be. I never spoke to him personally so I don't really know, but my understanding from the rumors is that originally he couldn't recommend the WAJ because they wouldn't let him into the kitchen at all, at which point he directed those who asked him to refrain from eating there from lack of knowledge, but eventually they did give him. some access and it switched to hard not-recommended.

I've yet to hear of any specific Kashrus problem or kula. Of course, if somebody knows of such problem, it's a chiyuv to advertise it...



Specific to the WAJ, it is under a plain rabbanut non-mehdrin or even mehuderet certification. Until he would see something to tell him otherwise it makes a lot of sense for him to assume it is at the certified level and not above that. That is much different than a hechsher where the standards are recommended and he is just checking up on it.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14334
  • Total likes: 9585
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5131 on: July 28, 2021, 12:39:10 PM »
Come on. He either shechts every cow personally and doesn't let it leave his eyesight (and even then it's relying on Roiv and not absolute facts) or he's trusting others to one extent or another.

This is how Kashrus becomes complicated. Making up problems out of thin air.
That depends on
Does he "not recommend" or is he "unable to make a recommendation"?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14534
  • Total likes: 2236
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5132 on: July 28, 2021, 12:49:19 PM »
Specific to the WAJ, it is under a plain rabbanut non-mehdrin or even mehuderet certification. Until he would see something to tell him otherwise it makes a lot of sense for him to assume it is at the certified level and not above that. That is much different than a hechsher where the standards are recommended and he is just checking up on it.

We can nitpick if a certification carries more weight than the word of the signatory (in Eidus for example it's the opposite according to most Rishonim :P), but either way I fully respect those who don't eat at the WAJ - I wish I could bring myself to only eat shechita I supervised personally or at least know the Shochet.

My problem is with the posters here and others looking down at those of us eating at the WAJ despite being unable to pinpoint any specific problem, and oftentimes eating themselves at OU establishments with lower standards.



״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14334
  • Total likes: 9585
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5133 on: July 28, 2021, 12:52:52 PM »
We can nitpick if a certification carries more weight than the word of the signatory (in Eidus for example it's the opposite according to most Rishonim :P), but either way I fully respect those who don't eat at the WAJ - I wish I could bring myself to only eat shechita I supervised personally or at least know the Shochet.

My problem is with the posters here and others looking down at those of us eating at the WAJ despite being unable to pinpoint any specific problem, and oftentimes eating themselves at OU establishments with lower standards.
Do OU and establishments have a lower standard than plain rabbanut?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline yelped

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 7755
  • Total likes: 1857
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 28
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5134 on: July 28, 2021, 12:56:40 PM »
I wish I could bring myself to only eat shechita I supervised personally or at least know the Shochet.
:)

I personally know only of one person who shechts himself.

Offline biobook

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2020
  • Posts: 1017
  • Total likes: 1230
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5135 on: July 28, 2021, 01:03:00 PM »
:)

I personally know only of one person who shechts himself.
Ouch!

Offline yelped

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Mar 2015
  • Posts: 7755
  • Total likes: 1857
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 28
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5136 on: July 28, 2021, 01:06:49 PM »
Ouch!
Shechts *fowl and cows* himself. Lol.

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14534
  • Total likes: 2236
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5137 on: July 28, 2021, 01:16:56 PM »
Do OU and establishments have a lower standard than plain rabbanut?

In terms of official standards, Chalav Akum & Pas Akum are two easy examples of objectively non-mehadrin kulas that the OU relies on and Rabbanut does not. The OU also allows female mashgichot that the rabbanut doesn't, but I don't think that has any impact on the Kashrus. ETA The Magen Avraham holds women cannot be mashigichot, the OU is relying on RMF

In terms of supervision, I think the Rabannut might be more lenient with יוצא ונכנס as opposed to Temidi, but AFAIK that is halachically enough (assuming it actually happens).

There can be a difference in the quality of enforcement, but that's something that's nearly impossible to quantify. In the US with no major competition nobody is going around claiming the OU isn't living up to its official standard whereas in Israel the industry is very cut-throat. Every municipality in Israel is a different Rabbanut so it also carries from place to place. Supposedly Jlem is much better than TA, but go figure.

Other than quality of enforcement, the only differences I know of between Rabbanut & Rabbanut Mehadrin are Shechita and Bishul Akum.

Shecita obviously is a major issue (which created the mezzanine Mehuderet), but on bishul akum the Rabbanut uses the Rama's heter of igniting the flame, which I think is widely accepted amongst Ashkenzim, and even without that there is Roiv Yisroel. For Sfardim, it is a much bigger problem since the BY doesn't hold of it.



« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 02:54:15 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 14334
  • Total likes: 9585
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 13
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5138 on: July 28, 2021, 01:30:33 PM »
In terms of official standards, Chalav Akum & Pas Akum are two easy examples of objectively non-mehadrin kulas that the OU relies on and Rabbanut does not.
These obviously would not apply to certifications that are specifically CY and PY. anyone who is careful about those will make sure to only use such certification.
In terms of supervision, I think the Rabannut might be more lenient with יוצא ונכנס as opposed to Temidi, but AFAIK that is halachically enough (assuming it actually happens).
יוצא ונכנס can refer to a wide range including some that are debatable whether they meet even that standard.

Every municipality in Israel is a different Rabbanut so it also carries from place to place. Supposedly Jlem is much better than TA, but go figure.

There is also the question of ingredient standards which may negate the difference between various rabbanuts and can make any kula or shortcoming in any ingredient the proverbial weakest link. Most of the discussion here has not revolved about whether or not the rabbanut hechsher on WAJ is adequate. Some who feels that it is will eat there because those are their standards. The discussion has revolved around some who somehow feel that the hechsher there is equivalent to a supposedly better standard that what the hechsher claims. The question is what the basis of such a feeling really is.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline PlatinumGuy

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 14534
  • Total likes: 2236
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 11
    • View Profile
Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5139 on: July 28, 2021, 01:37:05 PM »
The discussion has revolved around some who somehow feel that the hechsher there is equivalent to a supposedly better standard that what the hechsher claims. The question is what the basis of such a feeling really is.

You first have to establish what the difference is between ‘Rabbanut’ & ‘Mehadrin’. As I said, I don’t believe there is one other than enforcement quality, Shechita, & Bishul Akum according to the BY. All other ingredients are the same for both standards.

The basis for assuming the WAJ maintains the higher standard is the word of the Mashgiach.

In terms of enforcement quality, all Rabbanut hotels in Israel (or at least Jlem) have a mashgiach Temidi, which is already more than ‘Mehadrin’ dairy.

In terms of Shechita, I don’t think anybody is doubting that WAJ uses glatt products.

In terms of Bishul Akum, I doubt anybody Ashkenazi here  isn’t Meikel like the Rama.

So, I think the WAJ is more Kosher than the average ‘Mehadrin’ restaurant in Jlem or OU in the US.

In thousands of posts on this subject, I don’t recall a single one pointing out a specific deficiency. Ultimately it boils down to whether you trust the mashgiach without the certification or you don’t.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 01:40:08 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים