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Breakfast:
Paying guests get breakfast for free. If you are staying on points you need to be gold or diamond to get free breakfast. (source)

Parking:
Complimentary (No longer, is now 60sh for self park - Drago)

Shuls Nearby:
Great Synagogue - Approx. 7 minute walk
Kotel around 15min walk thru the mall & arab Shuk (Only suggested when soldiers are present like friday night on the way home)
Hotel has a Shul in the basement

Hechsher: Plain Rabbanut Yerushayim (not mehadrin)
hechsherim in isreal
whatever your rabbi says you can eat, someone else's rabbi says is treif

If anyone is planing on staying at Waldorf and not eating the free breakfast (Hechsher, Early flight, etc') please PM shimino1

If you get free drinks vouchers and don't use them, I'll buy it off you for 10 shek per voucher.
PM shimino1

If anyone is planing on staying at Waldorf and not eating the free breakfast please PM dragoddfer, and he may be able to pay for the breakfast.

« Last edited by Drago on December 20, 2021, 03:09:28 PM »

Author Topic: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem  (Read 785438 times)

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5140 on: July 28, 2021, 02:05:38 PM »
R' Efrati told me that Nafcha (who is the Waldrof mashgiach) is bar samcha
This changes alot for me.

You first have to establish what the difference is between ‘Rabbanut’ & ‘Mehadrin’. As I said, I don’t believe there is one other than enforcement quality, Shechita, & Bishul Akum according to the BY. All other ingredients are the same for both standards.
I think they have different standards for what vegetables can be koshered from bugs. Mehadrin definitely have to use Gush katif. During Shmita plain rabanut can use heter mechira though I doubt thats an issue at the WAJ. In general I think the major difference between rabanut and OU is the rabanut gives unrealistic standards it can't keep to and from all accounts its enforcement isn't good. Could be your right and it's a just because of different local attitude.

I can only speak for myself but I was not looking doesnt, I genuinely wanted to know what people are basing themselves on.
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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5141 on: July 28, 2021, 02:09:53 PM »


You first have to establish what the difference is between ‘Rabbanut’ & ‘Mehadrin’. As I said, I don’t believe there is one other than enforcement quality, Shechita, & Bishul Akum according to the BY. All other ingredients are the same for both standards.

While I don't have first hand info, from discussions with some who do this is simply mistaken.

Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5142 on: July 28, 2021, 02:17:24 PM »
I think they have different standards for what vegetables can be koshered from bugs. Mehadrin definitely have to use Gush katif. During Shmita plain rabanut can use heter mechira though I doubt thats an issue at the WAJ.

Rabbanut requires Gush Katif as well. (Ca Phe Hanoi in Tel Aviv has an alternative certification because the Rabbanut won't allow them to use non mehadrin lettuce even if a mashgiach checks it)

Heter Mechira if used is explicitly noted, but that's a valid point.

In general I think the major difference between rabanut and OU is the rabanut gives unrealistic standards it can't keep to and from all accounts its enforcement isn't good. Could be your right and it's a just because of different local attitude.

It's very subjective and impossible to quantify, but what makes you think the OU enforcement is better? I'm suggesting part of the difference is that there is less competition pointing that out.

While I don't have first hand info, from discussions with some who do this is simply mistaken.
It is very possible I am mistaken, but I would love to know what the mistake is.

While I don't think you did so yourself, it is ironic when people condemn others for assuming the WAJ is Mehadrin when they don't actually know what the difference is.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 02:21:52 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5143 on: July 28, 2021, 02:27:05 PM »


It's very subjective and impossible to quantify, but what makes you think the OU enforcement is better?
As you say it's subjective. The more reasonable standards, and attitude (the most frum and professional hechsherim have female mashgiachs) make me more confident. They are heaven and earth apart in terms of transparency. Just the fact that one is government owned is a big ריעותא. Add to that the mashgichim being direct employees of the establishments, they endorse rubber stamp hechsherim on imports and to use in establishments, the variations between each local rabanut... The list goes on.
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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5144 on: July 28, 2021, 02:34:16 PM »
As you say it's subjective. The more reasonable standards, and attitude (the most frum and professional hechsherim have female mashgiachs) make me more confident. They are heaven and earth apart in terms of transparency. Just the fact that one is government owned is a big ריעותא. Add to that the mashgichim being direct employees of the establishments, they endorse rubber stamp hechsherim on imports and to use in establishments, the variations between each local rabanut... The list goes on.

Fair enough, although Re female mashigchot I did more research (one of the more productive things I've done today) and it is a kula from RMF.

The Rabbanut follows (or at least did until recently) the מגן אברהם and Mishna Berura who pasken that they aren't neeman.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 03:05:14 PM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5145 on: July 28, 2021, 02:52:14 PM »


Re female mashigchot I did more research (one of the more productive things I've done today) and it is a kula from RMF.

The Rabbanut follows (or at least did until recently) the מגן אברהם who paskens that they aren't neeman.
Very interesting. I know multiple chasidish and very well run hechsherim that rely.
BTW the sfardic chief rabbi condemned the new kashrut reform, he said that it's pritsus to have female mashgiachs. I never understand why they take the job if they can't help making peope hate them more. Unless they really are incredibly krum people.
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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5146 on: July 28, 2021, 02:56:40 PM »
BTW the sfardic chief rabbi condemned the new kashrut reform, he said that it's pritsus to have female mashgiachs. I never understand why they take the job if they can't help making peope hate them more. Unless they really are incredibly krum people.
That's PC compared to the truth that Halacha considers them untrustworthy.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5147 on: July 28, 2021, 02:57:02 PM »
Very interesting. I know multiple chasidish and very well run hechsherim that rely.
Comes to show you...
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5148 on: July 28, 2021, 03:10:57 PM »
considers them for specific tasks. Your being disingenuous by using it as blanket issur. Even according to the rishonim that the MGA brings.
The Magen Avraham and Mishna Berura say no neemnus outside of home for deroisa.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5149 on: July 28, 2021, 03:13:27 PM »
The Magen Avraham and Mishna Berura say no neemnus outside of home for deroisa.
I'm on the road so I can't look it up but please cute the MB you're referring to. As a recall it's specific to difficult/ tedious tasks that are deoraisa
The other missing point is that most reputable US certifiers have a yotzai bunch as in addition to an onsite ne'eman kashrus what you refer to as a Mashgiach temidi.
We call it a roving mashgiach. They stop by every facility to ensure everything is alright and logs are being filled out.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 03:26:06 PM by moko »

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5150 on: July 28, 2021, 03:40:36 PM »
I'm on the road so I can't look it up but please cute the MB you're referring to. As a recall it's specific to difficult/ tedious tasks that are deoraisa
The other missing point is that most reputable US certifiers have a yotzai bunch as in addition to an onsite ne'eman kashrus what you refer to as a Mashgiach temidi.
We call it a roving mashgiach. They stop by every facility to ensure everything is alright and logs are being filled out.

MB 437:16
בית וכו' - קאי אדלעיל שהשכירו לאחר שכבר נכנס יום י"ד דהחיוב על המשכיר לבדוק אלא שידוע לנו שלא בדק כגון שהלך לדרכו ואינו בעיר ואמרו אחד מב"ב כגון עבד או אשה או קטן שהם בדקוהו נאמנים וא"צ השוכר שוב לבדוק והטעם משום דבדיקת חמץ דרבנן דמן התורה בבטול סגי וע"כ האמינום חכמים גם לאלו. ולפ"ז אין להקל בזה אלא קודם שהגיע שעה ששית שיכול השוכר לבטל אבל לאחר שהגיע שעה ששית שאין בידו לבטל שוב אין לסמוך על אלו וצריך לבדוק

Igros Moshe YD 2:44

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5151 on: July 28, 2021, 03:51:43 PM »
so basically comes down to how much you trust the mashgiach which is what everyone is saying the issue is , bc no transparency  , i have been there many times with no mashgiach around and had to wait 15-20 min or more for them to find one not  a good look if supposed to have temidi ,I have gotten an answer to my questions as bderech klal (generally we use) meaning again no strait answer on what is currently going on now in the kitchen which is what i wanted to know. Thats just a few examples of things that rubbed me the wrong way when i asked about what was going on.

 As for products they do use a lot of sauces and spices that are very low on the hechsher scale (triangle k , chasam sofer petech tikva to name a few) which is why they hide as much as possible from people who ask.

im curious to know what will happen when shmitta starts what the standard will be for that

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5152 on: July 28, 2021, 04:08:05 PM »
I'm on the road so I can't look it up but please cute the MB you're referring to. As a recall it's specific to difficult/ tedious tasks that are deoraisa

That's the ( Rama &) Shach, and Toisfos Pesachim 4: that on such tasks they aren't neeman even at home, since they might have not done it accurately.

The MB mentions the tediousness only in context of asking them to do bedika lechatchila (which is derbanen since Bittul can still be done). In terms of believing them about the past he says it's OK but if it's deroisa he says they aren't neeman, without qualifications.

The Magen Avraham specifically likens it to Tevilas Keilim that women aren't neeman for, despite it obviously not being something tedious (although as R" Akiva Eiger points out the Toisfos the MA refers to isn't speaking about women)

i have been there many times with no mashgiach around and had to wait 15-20 min or more for them to find one not  a good look if supposed to have temidi

20 minutes for a mashgiach to come from the kitchen is perfectly understandable.


As for products they do use a lot of sauces and spices that are very low on the hechsher scale (triangle k , chasam sofer petech tikva to name a few)
Triangle K I don't believe (unless it's something that doesn't need a hechsher). Chassam Sofer is obviously a Mehadrin hechsher and there is no reason they shouldn't be relying on it.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 04:11:38 PM by PlatinumGuy »
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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5153 on: July 28, 2021, 04:37:47 PM »

20 minutes for a mashgiach to come from the kitchen is perfectly understandable.

Triangle K I don't believe (unless it's something that doesn't need a hechsher). Chassam Sofer is obviously a Mehadrin hechsher and there is no reason they shouldn't be relying on it.
[/quote]

Problem was he wasnt in the kitchen came running in from somewhere else dont even think he was in the hotel and heard the manager yell at him how he cant do that (wasnt rav nafcha) 

Believe what you want and you can eat what you want..... And not sure where you get that petach tikva is mehadrin just saying that shows that either you dont care what you put into your body or your naive (possibly both)

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5154 on: July 28, 2021, 05:06:42 PM »

 As for products they do use a lot of sauces and spices that are very low on the hechsher scale (triangle k , chasam sofer petech tikva to name a few) which is why they hide as much as possible from people who ask.


And you confirmed this how?

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5155 on: July 28, 2021, 05:08:40 PM »
And you confirmed this how?
Speaking to the mashgiach and pressuring  him about the products being used to make certain foods , or the cheeses that are petach tikva are pretty easy to call out bc no one else would give a hechsher on it .

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5156 on: July 28, 2021, 06:03:17 PM »
Chassam Sofer is obviously a Mehadrin hechsher
Come on, from you of all people
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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5157 on: July 29, 2021, 03:03:52 AM »
Just spoke with rabbi Weiner about the Waldorf again and he says like this :

The reason why waj doesn't get a better hechsher besides Stam rabbannut is bc of commitment issues to keeping to better standards and he spoke to the rabanut about it and said that's the reason . Not saying things aren't up to par but if have Stam rabbannut don't have to answer to anyone or commit to better standards, so you never know what your getting.

He spoke to reb efrati who rumors were was going to give his hechsher as well and he kept telling rabbi Weiner that what goes on  is לא פשוט over and over .

As for why ou is better in America then hechsher here is bc the ou has the money and manpower to keep to what they say , meaning you know exactly what standards your getting. Here they don't have the same resources so never really know what they are keeping to (this doesn't apply to rubin , eida, landau)
It's not easy to give a hechsher on hotels and ou the few places they may give a hechsher to have a team of 30+ people keeping tabs  but the Waldorf has a te.of 2-4 tops at any time.


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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5158 on: July 29, 2021, 03:17:00 AM »
Mods, please change thread topic name, it is completely misleading....

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5159 on: July 29, 2021, 03:27:44 AM »
...
C. All those for cannot answer one simple question. If everything is as mehadrin as they say it is, why no mehadrin (or even mehuderet) certificate? It stinks. The best I could get from the mashgiach is "That's how the owners family wants it". Shady.
The reason why waj doesn't get a better hechsher besides Stam rabbannut is bc of commitment issues to keeping to better standards and he spoke to the rabanut about it and said that's the reason . Not saying things aren't up to par but if have Stam rabbannut don't have to answer to anyone or commit to better standards, so you never know what your getting.