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http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/88534

Breakfast:
Paying guests get breakfast for free. If you are staying on points you need to be gold or diamond to get free breakfast. (source)

Parking:
Complimentary (No longer, is now 60sh for self park - Drago)

Shuls Nearby:
Great Synagogue - Approx. 7 minute walk
Kotel around 15min walk thru the mall & arab Shuk (Only suggested when soldiers are present like friday night on the way home)
Hotel has a Shul in the basement

Hechsher: Plain Rabbanut Yerushayim (not mehadrin)
hechsherim in isreal
whatever your rabbi says you can eat, someone else's rabbi says is treif

If anyone is planing on staying at Waldorf and not eating the free breakfast (Hechsher, Early flight, etc') please PM shimino1

If you get free drinks vouchers and don't use them, I'll buy it off you for 10 shek per voucher.
PM shimino1

If anyone is planing on staying at Waldorf and not eating the free breakfast please PM dragoddfer, and he may be able to pay for the breakfast.

« Last edited by Drago on December 20, 2021, 03:09:28 PM »

Author Topic: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem  (Read 832136 times)

Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5160 on: July 29, 2021, 04:59:49 AM »
A few have claimed the OU is more transparent than the Rabbabut. Here are the official Rabbanut standards. https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/generalpage/bchinot_kashrut/he/ספר%20השגחה%20וכשרות.pdf

Can anybody point to something similar from the OU or is it really the opaque one?

Here is a prominent Israeli Kosher advisory list (CRC equivalent) that warns even those who eat plain Rabbanut not to eat OU.

Just spoke with rabbi Weiner about the Waldorf again and he says like this :

The reason why waj doesn't get a better hechsher besides Stam rabbannut is bc of commitment issues to keeping to better standards and he spoke to the rabanut about it and said that's the reason . Not saying things aren't up to par but if have Stam rabbannut don't have to answer to anyone or commit to better standards, so you never know what your getting.

He spoke to reb efrati who rumors were was going to give his hechsher as well and he kept telling rabbi Weiner that what goes on  is לא פשוט over and over .

As for why ou is better in America then hechsher here is bc the ou has the money and manpower to keep to what they say , meaning you know exactly what standards your getting. Here they don't have the same resources so never really know what they are keeping to (this doesn't apply to rubin , eida, landau)
It's not easy to give a hechsher on hotels and ou the few places they may give a hechsher to have a team of 30+ people keeping tabs  but the Waldorf has a te.of 2-4 tops at any time.
I've yet to hear of any specific Kashrus problem or kula. Of course, if somebody knows of such problem, it's a chiyuv to advertise it...
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 05:23:30 AM by PlatinumGuy »
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline gross5g

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5161 on: July 29, 2021, 05:51:26 AM »


A few have claimed the OU is more transparent than the Rabbabut. Here are the official Rabbanut standards. https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/generalpage/bchinot_kashrut/he/ספר%20השגחה%20וכשרות.pdf

Can anybody point to something similar from the OU or is it really the opaque one?

Here is a prominent Israeli Kosher advisory list (CRC equivalent) that warns even those who eat plain Rabbanut not to eat OU.

Its not about the guide lines it's about having the man power to make sure they are being kept up with. Yes the ou is makel some places or machmir in others but what you see is what you get ,can't say the same for rabbanut they have guidelines but nobody implementing them properly.

Rabbi Weiner has had meetings with many rabbonim from america and Israel who know kashrus and all have found many problems with the rabbanut (whether there was no mashgiach on site or the products they were using etc.) When they actually went to stores and restaurants.

If you trust the rabbanut and consider it platinum level in regards to kashrus that's up to each person to decide and they can go eat in every place under the sun and enjoy , just don't fool yourself and say its up to par or even better  than american standards.


Offline PlatinumGuy

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5162 on: July 29, 2021, 06:06:36 AM »

Its not about the guide lines it's about having the man power to make sure they are being kept up with. Yes the ou is makel some places or machmir in others but what you see is what you get ,can't say the same for rabbanut they have guidelines but nobody implementing them properly.

Rabbi Weiner has had meetings with many rabbonim from america and Israel who know kashrus and all have found many problems with the rabbanut (whether there was no mashgiach on site or the products they were using etc.) When they actually went to stores and restaurants.

If you trust the rabbanut and consider it platinum level in regards to kashrus that's up to each person to decide and they can go eat in every place under the sun and enjoy , just don't fool yourself and say its up to par or even better  than american standards.

Again, who told you the OU is 'what you see is what you get'? (irrelevant anyways if they don't tell you what their standards are so you don't actually 'see' anything). Why do you think the OU has more 'resources'? Did Rabbi Weiner ever check the OU or only the Rabbanut?

״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline JlmBoi

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5163 on: July 29, 2021, 06:43:40 AM »


A few have claimed the OU is more transparent than the Rabbabut. Here are the official Rabbanut standards. https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/generalpage/bchinot_kashrut/he/ספר%20השגחה%20וכשרות.pdf

Here is a prominent Israeli Kosher advisory list (CRC equivalent) that warns even those who eat plain Rabbanut not to eat OU.
The general consensus I have heard is that the reality of Rabanut supervision is very far from the professed standards. From my experience of this country that seems like it's very likely. That booklet is standards to follow, not something they are advertising they deliver. I don't know or have very much experience with the OU above several spot inquiries. They do have the huge advantage of some level of transperancy, being one organization vs multitude of rabanut mekomits, being a private company, and employing the mashgichim themselves. It does seem like Israel would be much more ruthless on the reputation of any kashrus though.

Kosharot in general are huge believers in the Rabanut and are very PC. That doesn't take away from the fact that noone is doing anything close to them. The reality though is that they are not a chareidi POV, although they do buy the Rabanut standards (Many of which are ultra charedi for example חמאת עכו"ם) hook line and sinker. They also are self professedly not in any way proficient in the quality and working of chul hechsherim.
The chiddush of DDF is the way Dan Deals with all us crazies 🤪

Offline gross5g

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5164 on: July 29, 2021, 06:45:00 AM »
Again, who told you the OU is 'what you see is what you get'? (irrelevant anyways if they don't tell you what their standards are so you don't actually 'see' anything). Why do you think the OU has more 'resources'? Did Rabbi Weiner ever check the OU or only the Rabbanut?
He has gone to america many times and met with the ou,  crc and went to the kashrus conventions and spoken with many other people from local kashrus as well.
The ou is the largest organization in the world in terms of kashrus and they make tons of money from all that they do besides the hechsher.

He has spoken and has relationship with rabbanut and rav efrati as well as others here. As well as mashgiach in citadel mammila and the plaze

You know who he doesn't have what to do with ? rav nafcha...... He's only one who won't meet with him or talk with him no matter what and avoids him at all costs.
Even the big agents and owners of the Waldorf couldn't get him to meet him.
Thats the issue with the waj no transparency and no one on top of the situation.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 06:52:59 AM by gross5g »

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5165 on: July 29, 2021, 07:23:05 AM »
rav nafcha...... He's only one who won't meet with him or talk with him no matter what and avoids him at all costs.

So bottom line Rabbi Weiner has no direct knowledge at all of what happens at the Waldorf?

And those who disagree with you and think R' Nafcha is more reliable than Rabbi Weiner are perfectly in the right?
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline gross5g

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5166 on: July 29, 2021, 08:33:53 AM »
So bottom line Rabbi Weiner has no direct knowledge at all of what happens at the Waldorf?

And those who disagree with you and think R' Nafcha is more reliable than Rabbi Weiner are perfectly in the right?
Exactly obviously the guy is hiding something which has been the whole point of this discussion for last few days. No transparency and no need to hold to any standards excepts what he decides is good enough for you not what you say is good enough for you.

And even rav efrati who you quoted says not pashut .

So if all you need to believe something is kosher is a guy with beard and payos on a store with Hebrew letters go eat wherever you want and send me a postcard or post on Instagram or wtvr social media you'd like and let us all know how it is .
« Last Edit: July 29, 2021, 08:37:05 AM by gross5g »

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5167 on: July 29, 2021, 08:40:44 AM »
Exactly obviously the guy is hiding something which has been the whole point of this discussion for last few days. No transparency and no need to hold to any standards excepts what he decides is good enough for you not what you say is good enough for you.

And even rav efrati who you quoted says not pashut .

So if all you need to believe something is kosher is a guy with beard and payos go eat wherever you want and send me a postcard or post on Instagram or wtvr social media you'd like and let us all know how it is .

So you trust the OU, despite having no published or known standards at all, and then go and disgustingly mock those who trust a mashgiach they know on good authority is reliable and does claim to maintain a specific standard - which you yourself don’t dispute is a sufficient standard.

Great role model.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5168 on: July 29, 2021, 09:39:27 AM »
So you trust the OU, despite having no published or known standards at all, and then go and disgustingly mock those who trust a mashgiach they know on good authority is reliable and does claim to maintain a specific standard - which you yourself don’t dispute is a sufficient standard.

Great role model.
Is this the same Mashgiach that has Been in the Waldorf around 2 years ago. Thanks

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5169 on: July 29, 2021, 09:50:06 AM »
Just spoke with rabbi Weiner about the Waldorf again and he says like this :

The reason why waj doesn't get a better hechsher besides Stam rabbannut is bc of commitment issues to keeping to better standards and he spoke to the rabanut about it and said that's the reason . Not saying things aren't up to par but if have Stam rabbannut don't have to answer to anyone or commit to better standards, so you never know what your getting.

He spoke to reb efrati who rumors were was going to give his hechsher as well and he kept telling rabbi Weiner that what goes on  is לא פשוט over and over .

As for why ou is better in America then hechsher here is bc the ou has the money and manpower to keep to what they say , meaning you know exactly what standards your getting. Here they don't have the same resources so never really know what they are keeping to (this doesn't apply to rubin , eida, landau)
It's not easy to give a hechsher on hotels and ou the few places they may give a hechsher to have a team of 30+ people keeping tabs  but the Waldorf has a te.of 2-4 tops at any time.
Better standards like a Jew turning on the fire but not cooking and not having Jews working in the hotel on Shabbos.
Required by a mehadrin hechsher, but not something Ashkenazim care about.

Either way, this discussion is silly and isn't changing anyone's mind. Would you eat at a restaurant in the US under the OU?
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5170 on: July 29, 2021, 09:53:21 AM »
Is this the same Mashgiach that has Been in the Waldorf around 2 years ago. Thanks
I think so
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline gross5g

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5171 on: July 29, 2021, 10:13:56 AM »
So you trust the OU, despite having no published or known standards at all, and then go and disgustingly mock those who trust a mashgiach they know on good authority is reliable and does claim to maintain a specific standard - which you yourself don’t dispute is a sufficient standard.

Great role model.

Who knows this rav nafcha , name me one rav who people ask their shailos to that know hes under good authority?  Every rav here i asked says same thing something must be going on bc he wont talk to anyone who ask questions  (Again even you who quoted rav efrati says not pashut the stuff that goes on there)
Im not mocking im going on personal experience of the shady and vague answers when pressed for the truth of what hechsherim they use and when pressed he walks away oir says fine dont eat here. Look back im not the only one that says thats what happens.

 Any place I eat whether eida rubin etc I ask before to make sure and see whats going on.

If a persons rav who has knowledge of what goes on and says can eat there go and enjoy

Every person should have their own rav who they ask shailos to and follow and go from there not blindly go into any establishment bc says kosher and guy behind counter has a beard.

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5172 on: July 29, 2021, 10:15:12 AM »
A few have claimed the OU is more transparent than the Rabbabut. Here are the official Rabbanut standards. https://www.gov.il/BlobFolder/generalpage/bchinot_kashrut/he/ספר%20השגחה%20וכשרות.pdf

Can anybody point to something similar from the OU or is it really the opaque one?

Here is a prominent Israeli Kosher advisory list (CRC equivalent) that warns even those who eat plain Rabbanut not to eat OU.
Lol I have personally gone through hundreds pages about their standards and have had numerous discussions with them (their documents quote me a couple of times) and I haven't even gone through nearly half.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5173 on: July 29, 2021, 10:17:38 AM »
So you trust the OU, despite having no published or known standards at all, and then go and disgustingly mock those who trust a mashgiach they know on good authority is reliable and does claim to maintain a specific standard - which you yourself don’t dispute is a sufficient standard.

Great role model.
No he doesn't go by what you make up. Who is the mashgiach they know to be reliable on good authority? I haven't seen anything of that sort yet. I definitely have not seen any indication at all that he knows anything about how to operate such a kitchen at anything more than rabbanut standards.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5174 on: July 29, 2021, 10:19:32 AM »
So bottom line Rabbi Weiner has no direct knowledge at all of what happens at the Waldorf?

And those who disagree with you and think R' Nafcha is more reliable than Rabbi Weiner are perfectly in the right?
I haven't yet heard anyone say that they feel he is more reliable than R Weiner or seen such a thing quoted.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5175 on: July 29, 2021, 10:52:19 AM »
Better standards like a Jew turning on the fire but not cooking and not having Jews working in the hotel on Shabbos.
Required by a mehadrin hechsher, but not something Ashkenazim care about.

Either way, this discussion is silly and isn't changing anyone's mind. Would you eat at a restaurant in the US under the OU?
I understand that the guidance you got from your rov is that rabbanut is good as long as certain questions are answered properly. If that is your standard then go for it. The facts are that there is no hechsher in America that you would eat from including the OU that will rely on rabbanut for anything based on a few questions (there may be some very limited exceptions that I am unaware of) while the rabbanut will rely on them once they confirm about CY, PY etc. The OU mostly considers rabbanut hechsher to be non-existent and they are not politically against rabbanut. If those are your standards based on your rov then go for it and this discussion is not for you. For those who do not have such guidance, to consider WAJ to be a unicorn with no real basis for ti that I have seen seems strange.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5176 on: July 29, 2021, 11:32:46 AM »
(Again even you who quoted rav efrati says not pashut the stuff that goes on there)
Is there a machlokes here on what R' Efrati holds re the WAJ/R nafcha? who heard the latest word from him?

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5177 on: July 29, 2021, 11:41:22 AM »
Is there a machlokes here on what R' Efrati holds re the WAJ/R nafcha? who heard the latest word from him?
Apparently between @PlatinumGuy and R Weiner, but the quotes are saying different things. It seems he said that R Nafcha can be believed to state truth but also said about WAJ itself that it is "not simple" (better than saying that its a problem). Those 2 statements are potentially reconcilable.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5178 on: July 29, 2021, 12:18:22 PM »
Lol I have personally gone through hundreds pages about their standards and have had numerous discussions with them (their documents quote me a couple of times) and I haven't even gone through nearly half.

Are these published to the public or opaque?

No he doesn't go by what you make up.
What?

Who is the mashgiach they know to be reliable on good authority? I haven't seen anything of that sort yet. I definitely have not seen any indication at all that he knows anything about how to operate such a kitchen at anything more than rabbanut standards.
Rav Nafcha is the Mashgiach.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem
« Reply #5179 on: July 29, 2021, 12:32:48 PM »
Are these published to the public or opaque?
What?
Rav Nafcha is the Mashgiach.
There are voluminous amounts available on their websites and in the daf hakashrus over the years. Others are easily available upon request and readily given out. I did not access them through any connections. They literally threw them at me.

You said the OU has no published or known standards at all. That is something you made up and is simply false.

I know but who is the one who they know to be reliable? Regarding R Nafcha
I haven't seen anything of that sort yet. I definitely have not seen any indication at all that he knows anything about how to operate such a kitchen at anything more than rabbanut standards.
(I am not sure why he is being referred to a "Rav" and haven't seen anything leading me to that title or that he is a talmid chochom at all, but maybe that is just that I haven't seen it. Either way that is not a requirement for someone to be a competent and reliable mashgiach anyhow)
Feelings don't care about your facts