Author Topic: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court  (Read 28553 times)

Offline AJK

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 08:20:38 PM »
The same way that you point out that a Jew would probably side with the Jewish viewpoint over his Democratic affiliation, in a matter like this, a Democrat will side with his Democratic viewpoint over any other view that he might otherwise consider.(since this is such a polarized Democrat/Republican issue - it's like their religion).

You missed my point.

My point is (and was) that just because experience, background, and perspective happen to align with a particular party (Democratic/Republican/Independent/Alien/Whatever) does not mean a Judge or Justice decides the cases pursuant to that party.

Parties are simply that: a collection of like-minded individuals, whether they are like-minded because of upbringing, background, experience or perspective.
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Offline asd

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2012, 10:34:05 PM »
Those in the know believe kennedy will side with the democrats on this one, based on his wanting to be excepted by high society and heathcare is one of their main agendas.So there you have it his vote wont come down to party loyalty but to his insecurities.

Offline meshugener

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 11:00:20 PM »
Obviously you're mistaken. After todays hearing I don't believe there's one of "those in the know" who say he'll rule to upheld the law.
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Offline AJK

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2012, 09:31:07 AM »
Actually, I think it is you who are mistaken. Justice Kennedy is known to look at each case individually. The fact that his questions yesterday tended to attack the Government's position does not inexorably lead to the conclusion that he'll strike down Obamacare.

Justice Kennedy himself may not know how he will rule yet, so to say that "no one in the know" thinks he'll uphold Obamacare would be like saying you don't think he'll uphold the law, which would be, no offense, meaningless.
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Offline HelpMe

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2012, 09:37:36 AM »
Those in the know believe kennedy will side with the democrats on this one, based on his wanting to be excepted by high society and heathcare is one of their main agendas.So there you have it his vote wont come down to party loyalty but to his insecurities.
This has to be one of the most intelligent comments in this thread.  ::)
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Offline good sam

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #25 on: March 28, 2012, 12:07:03 PM »
K, I'll play.

Black and white was a (pretty apparent) allusion to your inflexible and warped view of reality.

Laws, like most things, have, and can be duly given, color. Whether you admit it or not, it would be utterly impossible for to you to even marginally set aside your upbringing, background, and perspective if you were the one in the high-backed chair presiding in judgment. What's more, it isn't required. No judge is required to "check his experience" at the door of the courthouse.
Right. If i were in the chair I would require separate schools for boys and girls and uphold a death penalty on adultary.  ::)
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Offline AJK

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #26 on: March 28, 2012, 12:16:04 PM »
Right. If i were in the chair I would require separate schools for boys and girls and uphold a death penalty on adultary.  ::)

My point is the same.

Great, so according to you, anyone with any exposure to religion, indeed anyone with any exposure to pretty much anything cannot become a Supreme Court Justice because... they'd be biased. I wonder what color the grass is in your utopian village.

Black and white was a (pretty apparent) allusion to your inflexible and warped view of reality.

Laws, like most things, have, and can be duly given, color.... No judge is required to "check his experience" at the door of the courthouse.
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Offline good sam

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #27 on: March 28, 2012, 12:25:25 PM »
This is Rule 2.2(2) of the Model Code of Judicial Conduct
Quote
Although each judge comes to the bench with a unique background and personal philosophy, a judge must interpret and apply the law without regard to whether the judge approves or disapproves of the law in question
Is it your position that this is an impossible requirement to satisfy?
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Offline AJK

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #28 on: March 28, 2012, 12:28:18 PM »
This is Rule 2.2(2) of the Model Code of Judicial ConductIs it your position that this is an impossible requirement to satisfy?

Uhm, perhaps you read too quickly, but nothing in there contradicts my position.
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Offline good sam

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2012, 12:31:18 PM »
Uhm, perhaps you read too quickly, but nothing in there contradicts my position.
I honestly can't figure out your position.  My original point was that the Justices should not, but often do, decide cases based on their political affiliation.  Do you disagree with this? I don't see how you can.
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Offline AJK

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #30 on: March 28, 2012, 12:41:00 PM »
I honestly can't figure out your position.  My original point was that the Justices should not, but often do, decide cases based on their political affiliation.  Do you disagree with this? I don't see how you can.

All that Rule from the MCJC says that is that, despite whether the Judge approves or disapproves of a particular law, he must interpret and apply it. Noticeably lacking in that rule (for your purposes anyway) is a requirement regarding how the Judge is to interpret and apply it. Seemingly contrary to what you're suggesting, he or she can do so taking into account his or her experience, perspective and perception, whether or not those traits align with a certain political stripe or not.
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Offline meshugener

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #31 on: March 28, 2012, 01:00:41 PM »
Todays session: hypothetical: if the mandate will be struck down, would the entire health care reform act go along? Why yes? Why not? No legal argument on that issue, only economical argument that the its not financially bearable for insurance companies to accept pre-existing conditions patients at the same time when the healthy ones aren't required to pay into the pool. No legal experts here to give an opinion?
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Offline good sam

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #32 on: March 28, 2012, 01:20:21 PM »
Todays session: hypothetical: if the mandate will be struck down, would the entire health care reform act go along? Why yes? Why not? No legal argument on that issue, only economical argument that the its not financially bearable for insurance companies to accept pre-existing conditions patients at the same time when the healthy ones aren't required to pay into the pool. No legal experts here to give an opinion?
AJK?
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Offline MarkS

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #33 on: March 28, 2012, 01:34:43 PM »
From MSNBC: I've bolded and underlined two sections...

Brace yourself for another 5-4 decision: Yesterday’s oral arguments at the Supreme Court raised the distinct possibility that the individual mandate -- and perhaps the entire health-care law -- could be decided by another controversial 5-4 decision. Such an outcome, especially after other 5-4 decisions like Bush vs. Gore and Citizens United, would have two potential consequences. One, it would feed the perception that the U.S. Supreme Court is as partisan as Congress and increasing parts of the media; in other words, these nine justices (either trained at liberal law schools or members of the conservative Federalist Society) are essentially political actors wearing black robes. And two and most importantly, a 5-4 decision would satisfy no one. If the court strikes down the mandate and the health-care law by that narrow margin, liberals and Democrats would blame it on the conservative justices. If the mandate and law are upheld by a 5-4 decision, conservatives would point their fingers at the liberals and the unpredictable “mushy” swing justice, Anthony Kennedy. That’s the problem with a split decision: The losers would feel like they lost on a political technicality, not because there was a legal consensus.

Offline HelpMe

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #34 on: March 28, 2012, 01:38:15 PM »
From MSNBC: I've bolded and underlined two sections...

Brace yourself for another 5-4 decision: Yesterday’s oral arguments at the Supreme Court raised the distinct possibility that the individual mandate -- and perhaps the entire health-care law -- could be decided by another controversial 5-4 decision. Such an outcome, especially after other 5-4 decisions like Bush vs. Gore and Citizens United, would have two potential consequences. One, it would feed the perception that the U.S. Supreme Court is as partisan as Congress and increasing parts of the media; in other words, these nine justices (either trained at liberal law schools or members of the conservative Federalist Society) are essentially political actors wearing black robes. And two and most importantly, a 5-4 decision would satisfy no one. If the court strikes down the mandate and the health-care law by that narrow margin, liberals and Democrats would blame it on the conservative justices. If the mandate and law are upheld by a 5-4 decision, conservatives would point their fingers at the liberals and the unpredictable “mushy” swing justice, Anthony Kennedy. That’s the problem with a split decision: The losers would feel like they lost on a political technicality, not because there was a legal consensus.
This is why they should never disclose the vote total.
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Offline AJK

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #35 on: March 28, 2012, 02:40:46 PM »
AJK?

Though I appreciate the vote of confidence, I am in no way, shape, or form a legal expert.

That said, just because one aspect of a law is struck down does not compel the remaining pieces to be struck down as well. The reason the arguments have focused solely on the economics is because that is the major issue. Can ACA survive without the mandate? Many believe (me included) that the answer to that is no. The mandate is the third leg of an already wobbly chair. Kick it out, and the thing falls over.

The losers would feel like they lost on a political technicality, not because there was a legal consensus

Who cares what the losers feel? All that is needed is a majority, the definition of which is five votes. That means a consensus. A legal consensus. Five or more people feel that the law dictates a certain outcome. Period.
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Offline good sam

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #36 on: April 02, 2012, 11:29:24 PM »
Obama on the fate of the law:

"Ultimately, I'm confident that the Supreme Court will not take what would be an unprecedented, extraordinary step of overturning a law that was passed by a strong majority of a democratically elected Congress"

"So there's not only an economic element to this and a legal element to this, but there's a human element to this. I hope that's not forgotten in this political debate."

Is this guy from another planet?  What does a (strong?) majority have to do with the Constitution?  What if the majority of Congress felt we should have segregated schools?!  And should the Justices really consider the "human" element in this "political debate?"  This guy is off his rocker!
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Offline AJK

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #37 on: April 02, 2012, 11:32:34 PM »
...and to think he taught con law at chicago.
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Offline bubkiz

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #38 on: April 02, 2012, 11:47:37 PM »
Obama on the fate of the law:

"Ultimately, I'm confident that the Supreme Court will not take what would be an unprecedented, extraordinary step of overturning a law that was passed by a strong majority of a democratically elected Congress"
Excuse my ignorance, but has the court never yet struck down a law passed by Congress?

Offline Ergel

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Re: Health Care Reform In The Supreme Court
« Reply #39 on: April 02, 2012, 11:49:27 PM »
And who cares that it was democratically elected? The third Reich was also originally democratically elected (not saying they are like them, just making a point)
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