Topic Wiki

This thread is for NYC parking tickets.

For moving violations outside of New York City please post to http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=1206.0

For tickets outside of NY please start a new thread.
« Last edited by Hirshthg on July 27, 2017, 06:38:47 PM »

Author Topic: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?  (Read 81488 times)

Offline Saver2000

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Apr 2011
  • Posts: 7641
  • Total likes: 26
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2014, 10:05:50 PM »
Your letter is cute, drawing at straws, and pushing the limits  and you want the judge to agree with its cuteness part.  I would probably add a cute phrase/sentence/note of some type alluding to that so that the judge is agreeing with you rather than agreeing with the drawing at straws or pushing the limits aspect.

Writing your note in your lawyerese would make it even cuter.  Maybe an idea like..."ok, Judge, are you ready for this?" or "Don't laugh, now, I'm serious" or "Your Honor, I really thought this out.  Please humor me" etc.   The idea is that you are aware that you are stretching it a bit and you are saying it before the judge says it.  This way there's no point in his saying it to you and may take your letter in jokelike/cutelike fashion, as well, and enjoy the interaction as opposed to telling you off.  Hatzlocho.
Doesn't seem like that to me.  He's not acting cute.  He's presenting it as a legitimate claim.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2014, 10:09:14 PM »
was the ticket handwritten or with their scanner
scanner
Your letter is cute, drawing at straws, and pushing the limits  and you want the judge to agree with its cuteness part.  I would probably add a cute phrase/sentence/note of some type alluding to that so that the judge is agreeing with you rather than agreeing with the drawing at straws or pushing the limits aspect.

Writing your note in your lawyerese would make it even cuter.  Maybe an idea like..."ok, Judge, are you ready for this?" or "Don't laugh, now, I'm serious" or "Your Honor, I really thought this out.  Please humor me" etc.   The idea is that you are aware that you are stretching it a bit and you are saying it before the judge says it.  This way there's no point in his saying it to you and may take your letter in jokelike/cutelike fashion, as well, and enjoy the interaction as opposed to telling you off.  Hatzlocho.

Too late, already sent.  Also, I don't expect any response; just a form letter saying "we have considered your defense and find it without merit".

Well these judges never went to Law school, they will have no darn idea what you want from them. They are hired by the NYC Dept of finance to find guilty everyone who does not want to donate money to to the City. It's one of the most corrupted guys you deal with. Hence, why you pay $115 for parking at a fire hydrant. And yeah I've yet to see a police car circling around for parking, they are very comfortable at the fire hydrants.
Yes, there's something bizarre about the way their job is to find you guilty.  I've literally been found guilty on dispute where the time the ticket said was not illegal according to the signs on the street.

Offline ilherman

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 8819
  • Total likes: 151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #42 on: June 16, 2014, 10:16:25 PM »
BTW, there is an appeals dept as well, you go in to a room and 3 judges (read, dummies) can't wait for you to leave the room and find you guilty. The fact that they don't give you an option to argue says it all. They allow you to give a speech and that's about it.  They don't bother asking you questions etc.

Guys, get yourself a SPI permit.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline mb1

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Gold Elite
  • ******
  • Join Date: Jan 2013
  • Posts: 914
  • Total likes: 15
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 23
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #43 on: June 16, 2014, 10:42:13 PM »
BTW, there is an appeals dept as well, you go in to a room and 3 judges (read, dummies) can't wait for you to leave the room and find you guilty. The fact that they don't give you an option to argue says it all. They allow you to give a speech and that's about it.  They don't bother asking you questions etc.

Guys, get yourself a SPI permit.
If you're really determined the next step is to file an Article 78 petition in court.
You usually won't win but you never know. :)
http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/3dseries/2014/2014_04242.htm

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #44 on: June 16, 2014, 10:51:59 PM »
If you're really determined the next step is to file an Article 78 petition in court.
You usually won't win but you never know. :)
http://www.nycourts.gov/reporter/3dseries/2014/2014_04242.htm

good one

Offline joeb1

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Aug 2011
  • Posts: 3025
  • Total likes: 38
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
  • Programs: SPG Platinum, Hyatt Diamond, Hilton Diamond, CPA, Travel Agent
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #45 on: June 16, 2014, 11:04:06 PM »
Anyone have any experiance with bus lane tickets?

Offline EJB

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 5324
  • Total likes: 217
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #46 on: June 16, 2014, 11:08:22 PM »
Got a ticket when I was in town for shevuous.  In the old days I would just plea bargain it and pay it, but since they stopped that program, I may as well get my five minutes of kicks out of writing reasons for it to be dismissed.

Here's the first idea that popped into my head, which I just submitted.   I hope they don't read ddf.

I thought that's the point of the grace periods. Clocks can be off. But I don't think they'll accept a claim like yours on the grace period.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2014, 11:13:08 PM »
I thought that's the point of the grace periods. Clocks can be off. But I don't think they'll accept a claim like yours on the grace period.

Of course.  But that's about MY watch.  I still want to know how THEY knew what time it was.

Also, a machine can be off by 6 minutes too.

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25507
  • Total likes: 477
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2014, 11:48:40 PM »
Well these judges never went to Law school

Don't believe that's accurate.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25507
  • Total likes: 477
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2014, 11:51:22 PM »
I thought that's the point of the grace periods. Clocks can be off. But I don't think they'll accept a claim like yours on the grace period.

Yep. One has technically parked illegally at 0:00:01 second beyond the legal time.

The grace period is exactly that, a grace for not fining you for five mins beyond the legal time, even though you're parked illegally.

The only real argument OP has is that the machine could have been 6 mins off, but that's a far cry from 1 minute off, which is possible, but not meritorious.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2014, 12:01:13 AM »
Yep. One has technically parked illegally at 0:00:01 second beyond the legal time.

The grace period is exactly that, a grace for not fining you for five mins beyond the legal time, even though you're parked illegally.

The only real argument OP has is that the machine could have been 6 mins off, but that's a far cry from 1 minute off, which is possible, but not meritorious.

I'm not sure.  Once the grace period is there, if I could prove the clock was off by a minute and it was for sure 1035 (1034?), wouldn't they have to let me off?

Regardless, I hold the grace period is for my watch. They should have correct watches.

Offline ilherman

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 8819
  • Total likes: 151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2014, 01:20:21 AM »
Don't believe that's accurate.
So lets see what they will answer him. If they will answer him like someone who went to law school or if they will just tell him we have considered your defense and find it without merit.
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline AJK

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 25507
  • Total likes: 477
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Programs: United Concierge Key; Delta Global Services; American Chairman; US Airways 1K; Hilton Sapphire; Hyatt Tritium; Marriott Californium; Starwood Kryptonium; Hertz Plutonium; National Adamantium, Avis Executive Proactanium
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2014, 10:31:26 PM »
So lets see what they will answer him. If they will answer him like someone who went to law school or if they will just tell him we have considered your defense and find it without merit.

Judges on the United States Supreme Court do that every day.
2015: 116K bkd | 1.6M brnd | F: OZ,NH,AA,EK | J: UA,CA,TK,DL,TN,AF,VA | LIH,NRT,ROR,PEK,CNS,BOB,MEL,TLV & Pacific Hopper

Offline Ergel

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2010
  • Posts: 12841
  • Total likes: 892
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 3
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2014, 10:53:24 PM »
Judges on the United States Supreme Court do that every day.
Maybe they didn't graduate law school either ::)
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #54 on: June 21, 2014, 09:48:55 PM »
In case anyone was curious, the denied it.  As I expected.

Here:
Quote
The respondent has been charged with violating Traffic Rule 4-08(d)(1) by parking a vehicle in violation of officially posted street
cleaning rules as defined in Traffic Rule 408(a)(7)(iii). Respondent testifies that the summons is defective because the violation time
was incorrectly indicated. This defense is not supported with any evidence or is persuasive. The summons establishes a prima facie case and there are no facial defects. It is a violation to park in a street cleaning zone. Upheld.

You gotta like the way they threw in the legalese. "prima facie." 

Then they make you pay in advance if you want to appeal.  Last time I did that, they took my payment and didn't even bother responding to the appeal. 

I'll still appeal again, doesn't cost anything more than a stamp.  I'll point out that the ALJ used the wrong legal standard by asking whether my defense was supported by evidence instead of whether the summons is supported by evidence.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2014, 09:53:22 PM by henche »

Online TimT

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 20K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 20301
  • Total likes: 3580
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 12
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #55 on: June 21, 2014, 10:01:26 PM »
In case anyone was curious, the denied it.  As I expected.

Here:
You gotta like the way they threw in the legalese. "prima facie." 

Then they make you pay in advance if you want to appeal.  Last time I did that, they took my payment and didn't even bother responding to the appeal. 

I'll still appeal again, doesn't cost anything more than a stamp.  I'll point out that the ALJ used the wrong legal standard by asking whether my defense was supported by evidence instead of whether the summons is supported by evidence.
Good luck this time. What's the chance they listen to that ?

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #56 on: June 21, 2014, 10:10:50 PM »
Good luck this time. What's the chance they listen to that ?

0%

I'd be happy enough if they actually responded.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #57 on: June 21, 2014, 10:12:18 PM »
Query: how do you testify as to time under the NYS rules of evidence?  Do you have to say how you knew what time it was, or can you just testify that "it was 1030" and leave it at that?


Offline ilherman

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 8819
  • Total likes: 151
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #58 on: June 21, 2014, 10:18:09 PM »
Why don't you go down to them?
You can say what you think when you think what you say.

Offline henche

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: May 2011
  • Posts: 3904
  • Total likes: 435
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: How to beat Alternate Side/street cleaning ticket in NY?
« Reply #59 on: June 21, 2014, 10:21:31 PM »
Why don't you go down to them?

I live in Boston.