Author Topic: How many cpm is considered ona'ah? (Read 4606 times)

ReadsTheT&C · « **on:** May 03, 2012, 10:19:54 PM »

A friend of mine needed, mamash last minute, to get from NY to LA this morning and all the flights were >$1k RT. I offered to book him through my United miles for $600. It cost me 25k miles + $80 in fees (I would've called to try and get them to waive the $75 fee but time was of the essence

) After all is said and done I ended up making 2.08cpm, but he saved over $400. Think I'm ohver on ona'ah or was this a win-win?

AJK · « **Reply #1 on:** May 03, 2012, 10:46:28 PM »

Technically, if he had enough time, your friend could have bought UA or UR for about 1.7cpm (the apparent market rate). However, the excess .38cpm (or $100) he was actually charged over that rate can possibly be chalked up a "last-minute surcharge" as you supplied them precisely when he needed them.

Then again, you did save him $400 if gauged against prevailing revenue tickets.

Interesting Q.

JEWDA · « **Reply #2 on:** May 03, 2012, 10:53:24 PM »

I think AJK is right. If he agreed it shouldn't be a prob.

Saver2000 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:14:46 PM »

Quote from: JEWDA on May 03, 2012, 10:53:24 PM

I think AJK is right. If he agreed it shouldn't be a prob.

What does that mean? The issur of ona'ah applies to a regular standard sale - in which case the buyer isn't forced to buy the item. (In other words, he agreed to the price)

aussiebochur · « **Reply #4 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:23:10 PM »

Youre selling a ticket, not miles. Don't see why the CPM matter.

Fish Tank · « **Reply #5 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:34:24 PM »

Quote from: aussiebochur on May 03, 2012, 11:23:10 PM

Youre selling a ticket, not miles. Don't see why the CPM matter.

When you call up a mileage broker to buy points for lets say a domestic 25k points ticket, do they give you a price based on cpm, or do they look up rates for that specific route and charge based on their findings?

(I have no idea how these things work. I'm askimg this question bec I think the answer would determine if your point of view is correct or not)

aussiebochur · « **Reply #6 on:** May 03, 2012, 11:51:49 PM »

Quote from: Fish Tank on May 03, 2012, 11:34:24 PM

When you call up a mileage broker to buy points for lets say a domestic 25k points ticket, do they give you a price based on cpm, or do they look up rates for that specific route and charge based on their findings?

(I have no idea how these things work. I'm askimg this question bec I think the answer would determine if your point of view is correct or not)

Mileage broker that sells miles will sell per CPM.

Mileage ticket broker will sell according to the price of the ticket.

From the OP, it seems he was selling a ticket (although booked with miles) for $600, no?

ReadsTheT&C · « **Reply #7 on:** May 04, 2012, 07:56:16 AM »

Quote from: aussiebochur on May 03, 2012, 11:51:49 PM

From the OP, it seems he was selling a ticket (although booked with miles) for $600, no?

That's right, and it did involve about an hour of work between looking up flights, booking him, calling United, etc. so I suppose you could add in those ancillary costs.

Side incomer · « **Reply #8 on:** May 04, 2012, 08:01:14 AM »

Quote from: aussiebochur on May 03, 2012, 11:23:10 PM

Youre selling a ticket, not miles. Don't see why the CPM matter.

+1
If he's the one that is lookign for miles, and you were doing that, then this could be a question.
But he was looking for a ticket, and you got him a cheap ticket.

Fefferkorn · « **Reply #9 on:** May 04, 2012, 02:38:34 PM »

What about paying someone too little for miles?
I think I saw somewhere that it could be a form of ona'ah as well.
How long would one be able to go?

Ergel · « **Reply #10 on:** May 04, 2012, 05:08:24 PM »

Quote from: Fefferkorn on May 04, 2012, 02:38:34 PM

What about paying someone too little for miles?
I think I saw somewhere that it could be a form of ona'ah as well.
How long would one be able to go?

Onaah up to a sixth of the fair market value the sale is effective (doesn't necessarily mean it's mutar), a sixth off the sale is effective but the person who got ripped off recoups the difference, more than a sixth the sale is batel.
In todays day and age it's sometimes hard to determine market value (price of a coke in NYC is different than anywhere else)

Chaikel · « **Reply #11 on:** May 05, 2012, 07:45:20 PM »

IIRC onaah is only when there was a fixed sha'ar. Today, that basically doesn't exist. Ask YLOR

Fefferkorn · « **Reply #12 on:** May 05, 2012, 10:42:01 PM »

Quote from: Ergel on May 04, 2012, 05:08:24 PM

Onaah up to a sixth of the fair market value the sale is effective (doesn't necessarily mean it's mutar), a sixth off the sale is effective but the person who got ripped off recoups the difference, more than a sixth the sale is batel.
In todays day and age it's sometimes hard to determine market value (price of a coke in NYC is different than anywhere else)

I'm talking about BUYING for too cheap. Not selling. I s that also onaah?

Ergel · « **Reply #13 on:** May 05, 2012, 11:16:57 PM »

Quote from: Fefferkorn on May 05, 2012, 10:42:01 PM

I'm talking about BUYING for too cheap. Not selling. I s that also onaah?

Rules are the same both ways

Ergel · « **Reply #14 on:** May 05, 2012, 11:18:18 PM »

Quote from: Chaikel on May 05, 2012, 07:45:20 PM

IIRC onaah is only when there was a fixed sha'ar. Today, that basically doesn't exist. Ask YLOR

I agree with the last part of your statement.
Generally it is hard to apply the rules nowadays but it definitely still applies

Fefferkorn · « **Reply #15 on:** May 05, 2012, 11:59:56 PM »

So what would be the lowest one can pay someone for miles these days without it being considered "out of line"?

aussiebochur · « **Reply #16 on:** May 06, 2012, 12:06:41 AM »

If Amex let's you cash out at 1.0, that seems OK, no?

Fefferkorn · « **Reply #17 on:** May 06, 2012, 12:17:46 AM »

Quote from: aussiebochur on May 06, 2012, 12:06:41 AM

If Amex let's you cash out at 1.0, that seems OK, no?

Are you REALLY saying that amex's 1cpm mark the shaar for amex points?
cmon...

Drago · « **Reply #18 on:** May 06, 2012, 01:57:45 AM »

Quote from: aussiebochur on May 03, 2012, 11:23:10 PM

Youre selling a ticket, not miles. Don't see why the CPM matter.

+1
Gotta compare it to the going rate of the ticket. Not how much he could have paid for miles had he been able to find some other dealer in enough time.

AsherO · « **Reply #19 on:** May 06, 2012, 02:17:44 AM »

Quote from: Ergel on May 05, 2012, 11:18:18 PM

Generally it is hard to apply the rules nowadays but it definitely still applies

So how do you work that when the shaar is already a +/-10% range? i.e. if the range for Amex points is 1.4-1.7 (median is 1.55, 1.4 and 1.7 are already +/- 10%) and you consider 1.55 the shaar, then a desperate buyer paying 1.8 and a desperate seller getting 1.3 are both onaah transactions...

What about the fact that Amex lets you cash out MR at 1.0 but sells at 2.5? Does that make buy/sell transactions at those prices ok?

Adding the mileage broker angle (and other complicating factors) just exacerbates the issue. Anyone consult with a competent LOR? What were their answers and reasons?