Personal note (kvittel) at the Kosel for only $5!!

[Drago]

i know many people who go- and according to almost every godel today- they might be chayiv karais! All to make a political statement!

And the the source for the western wall having extra kedusha - "the Divine Presence rests on the Western Wall more than other places. (see Midrash Rabba - Exodus 2:2 and Song of Songs 2:4"

also-Taamei Haminhagim (p. 270, footnote) records a story told by the Minchas Elazar of Munkatch, in which the Ohr Hachaim (R. Chaim ibn Attar, 1696-1743) gave such a note to someone to put into the Wall. So it goes back at least that far.

and my offer still stands- if any one wants a note placed in by a certified jew- i can do it for $5 tzedaka!

Let's leave aside the question of going up to Har Habayis which we'll leave for those who have actually studied the dimensions (ie, not a majority of ppl), as well as the Rambam's account of his going up (although acc to many, this would have been one of the less controverstial things he's done), I would be interested in knowing how many notes R. Eliyashiv or the other gedolim in the charedi world have put in.

And if a third-party story from a few hundred years ago is the stongest source...

Again, I'm asking on a logical level, the western wall is not even part of the original har habayis. It's a wall built by herod to expand the area.

And with regards to the medrash, I'm well aware of it. I think I recall s/t that it refers to the original wall surrounding the beis hamikdash, but I need to check again.

Either way, if davening there uplifts s/o and helps them become more Godly ppl, than by all means. I love davening there on Friday night when I'm able.

[satturn]

i agree lets not connect going up to har habayis with putting a note in the wall! ones a minhag- and ones a possible issur karais!

The rambams account of going up- is not so simple-   " There are those who assert that Rambam davened on Har HaBayit. This is based on an autobiographical letter attributed to Rambam about his travels in the Land of Israel (see Yitzchak Shilat, ed., Iggerot HaRambam, vol. 1 [Jerusalem, 5747], 224-226). However, the letter’s authenticity is questionable. Even if Rambam wrote it, his reference to Har HaBayit is somewhat vague. Some recent posekim—primarily those opposed to ascending Har HaBayit—suggest that Rambam davened in a synagogue located near, not on, Har HaBayit (Minchat Yitzchak 5:1; Tzitz Eliezer 10:1:54-55, 11:15:6). See Rabbi Goren, Sefer Har HaBayit, 350-351.

Not so simple.

I agree the minhag to put a note in the wall is---a minhag--- the mitzva of giving tzeddaka----Mitzva deoraysa. So i propose you fullfill a mitzva deoraysa and fulfill a minhag for $5. Seems to me that its a win win!
 You propose- Giving it to someone going to har habayis. 1. possible issur karayas. 2. Assur by many ( including non chariedi rabbonim see list on bottem) even if you know the measurements for others reasons such as making the place open, so people who are tamei might come up. 3) Putting yourself in  possible danger (deoraysa). And more and more and more....

In my self promoted opinion -  my idea is a safer bet!

p.s- i myself only put a note in the kotel once- to fulfill the minhag. But i have no problem doing it for others if it makes them and the tzeddaka happy!

List of non charedi/ or charedi light rabbanim who forbid entry to har habayit:
Rabbi Yona Metzger, Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel (March 2012)
Rabbi Shlomo Amar, Sefardi Chief Rabbi of Israel
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, spiritual leader of Sefardi Charedi Judaism and former Sefardi Chief Rabbi of Israel
Rabbi Eliyahu Bakshi-Doron, former Sefardi Chief Rabbi of Israel  (March 2012)
Rabbi Shmuel Rabinowitz, Rav of the Kotel (March 2012)
Rabbi Avraham Shapiro z’l, former Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel and then Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Mercaz HaRav
Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, Rosh yeshiva of Yeshivat Ateret Cohanim
Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau, former Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel and current Chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv
Rabbi Yitzchak Weiss, the Minchat Yitzchak
Rabbi Eliezer Waldenberg, the Tzitz Eliezer
This is also the position on Rav Avigdor Nevensal (March 2012), Rav of the Old City and Rav Aharon Lichtenstein of
Yeshivat Har Etzion

[Drago]

You can ask one of these ppl to bring it up. I'm sure they'd do it for free. (And if you'd like, you can add in a prayer in it for their souls to be saved for having the audacity to ascend )
http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/238141

Here's a decent article that I haven't yet read, but I've enjoyed the authors prior writings.  http://www.ou.org/index.php/jewish_action/article/54428/

And a quibble about this all:
 How many of the rabbanim have actually put in the time and research that R. Goren did, which he lays out in his sefer on the topic? Typically, these questions are decided using reasoned shailos and teshuvos, not the signing of posters. My hunch is that many of the rabbanim who are against it do so b/c of the other rabbanim. Not davka b/c they spent the time doing all of the archeological research. And I don't blame them for that. It probably took R. Goren years of research to do so, and most rabbanim cant dedicate that type of time. I would be interested in seeing s/t similar that reaches the opposite conclusion (which I'm sure is out there, I'm just unaware of it)

p.s- i myself only put a note in the kotel once- to fulfill the minhag.

W/o trying to come across sounding disrespectful, 'fulfill a minhag'  First off, 'fulfill', secondly, a 'minhag'?? Wow, the status of what is considered a minhag appears to be steadily decreasing.

Anyone ever hear the story of the 'minhag' of going up to Amuka (or s/t like that) to daven for a shidduch? The story I heard gave me a good laugh.

[satturn]

And a quibble about this all:
 How many of the rabbanim have actually put in the time and research that R. Goren did, which he lays out in his sefer on the topic? Typically, these questions are decided using reasoned shailos and teshuvos, not the signing of posters. My hunch is that many of the rabbanim who are against it do so b/c of the other rabbanim. Not davka b/c they spent the time doing all of the archeological research. And I don't blame them for that. It probably took R. Goren years of research to do so, and most rabbanim cant dedicate that type of time. I would be interested in seeing s/t similar that reaches the opposite conclusion (which I'm sure is out there, I'm just unaware of it)

you follow hunches- ill follow the gedolim (chareidi or dati leumi)- who have repeatedly publicly said that the issue is not entirely a measurement issue- there are many other halachik issues- some which where outlined in the previous post. This is not just a read a book make a psak for yourself religion.

[AsherO]

Anyone ever hear the story of the 'minhag' of going up to Amuka (or s/t like that) to daven for a shidduch? The story I heard gave me a good laugh.

Several explainations are given here (warning, it's in Hebrew), none are stories though.

[Drago]

Several explainations are given here (warning, it's in Hebrew), none are stories though.

I'm referring to page 7 here
http://alfassa.com/paper-amuka.pdf

It's always important to distinguish between the 'bidieved' and 'l'chatchila' reasons. Why it started, and the subsequent 'reasons' given.

[arch]

i agree lets not connect going up to har habayis with putting a note in the wall! ones a minhag- and ones a possible issur karais!

The rambams account of going up- is not so simple-   " There are those who assert that Rambam davened on Har HaBayit. This is based on an autobiographical letter attributed to Rambam about his travels in the Land of Israel (see Yitzchak Shilat, ed., Iggerot HaRambam, vol. 1 [Jerusalem, 5747], 224-226). However, the letter’s authenticity is questionable. Even if Rambam wrote it, his reference to Har HaBayit is somewhat vague. Some recent posekim—primarily those opposed to ascending Har HaBayit—suggest that Rambam davened in a synagogue located near, not on, Har HaBayit (Minchat Yitzchak 5:1; Tzitz Eliezer 10:1:54-55, 11:15:6). See Rabbi Goren, Sefer Har HaBayit, 350-351.
+1000000000000
Not so simple.

I agree the minhag to put a note in the wall is---a minhag--- the mitzva of giving tzeddaka----Mitzva deoraysa. So i propose you fullfill a mitzva deoraysa and fulfill a minhag for $5. Seems to me that its a win win!
 You propose- Giving it to someone going to har habayis. 1. possible issur karayas. 2. Assur by many ( including non chariedi rabbonim see list on bottem) even if you know the measurements for others reasons such as making the place open, so people who are tamei might come up. 3) Putting yourself in  possible danger (deoraysa). And more and more and more....

In my self promoted opinion -  my idea is a safer bet!

p.s- i myself only put a note in the kotel once- to fulfill the minhag. But i have no problem doing it for others if it makes them and the tzeddaka happy!

List of non charedi/ or charedi light rabbanim who forbid entry to har habayit:
Rabbi Yona Metzger, Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel (March 2012)
Rabbi Shlomo Amar, Sefardi Chief Rabbi of Israel
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef, spiritual leader of Sefardi Charedi Judaism and former Sefardi Chief Rabbi of Israel
Rabbi Eliyahu Bakshi-Doron, former Sefardi Chief Rabbi of Israel  (March 2012)
Rabbi Shmuel Rabinowitz, Rav of the Kotel (March 2012)
Rabbi Avraham Shapiro z’l, former Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel and then Rosh Yeshiva of Yeshivat Mercaz HaRav
Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, Rosh yeshiva of Yeshivat Ateret Cohanim
Rabbi Yisrael Meir Lau, former Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi of Israel and current Chief Rabbi of Tel Aviv
Rabbi Yitzchak Weiss, the Minchat Yitzchak
Rabbi Eliezer Waldenberg, the Tzitz Eliezer
This is also the position on Rav Avigdor Nevensal (March 2012), Rav of the Old City and Rav Aharon Lichtenstein of
Yeshivat Har Etzion

[arch]

you follow hunches- ill follow the gedolim (chareidi or dati leumi)- who have repeatedly publicly said that the issue is not entirely a measurement issue- there are many other halachik issues- some which where outlined in the previous post. This is not just a read a book make a psak for yourself religion.
[/quote+1

[arch]

I'm referring to page 7 here
http://alfassa.com/paper-amuka.pdf

It's always important to distinguish between the 'bidieved' and 'l'chatchila' reasons. Why it started, and the subsequent 'reasons' given.

-1

[arch]

You can ask one of these ppl to bring it up. I'm sure they'd do it for free. (And if you'd like, you can add in a prayer in it for their souls to be saved for having the audacity to ascend )
http://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/238141

Here's a decent article that I haven't yet read, but I've enjoyed the authors prior writings.  http://www.ou.org/index.php/jewish_action/article/54428/

And a quibble about this all:
 How many of the rabbanim have actually put in the time and research that R. Goren did, which he lays out in his sefer on the topic? Typically, these questions are decided using reasoned shailos and teshuvos, not the signing of posters. My hunch is that many of the rabbanim who are against it do so b/c of the other rabbanim. Not davka b/c they spent the time doing all of the archeological research. And I don't blame them for that. It probably took R. Goren years of research to do so, and most rabbanim cant dedicate that type of time. I would be interested in seeing s/t similar that reaches the opposite conclusion (which I'm sure is out there, I'm just unaware of it)

W/o trying to come across sounding disrespectful, 'fulfill a minhag'  First off, 'fulfill', secondly, a 'minhag'?? Wow, the status of what is considered a minhag appears to be steadily decreasing.

Anyone ever hear the story of the 'minhag' of going up to Amuka (or s/t like that) to daven for a shidduch? The story I heard gave me a good laugh.

-10000

[Saver2000]

-10000

+1

[arch]

Everyone should just ask their Rav or Rebbe, what they should do............Assuming they have a Rav or rebbe that they actually have a real and personal relationship with.
It seems that Satturn is pretty fluent on the topic, and is backing his opinions with some solid proof, not just some books or video clips.
 Satturn have you asked your Rebbe? (I assume you do have a Rebbe,) What about Reuven?
Ill get off my soapbox now

[AsherO]

I'm referring to page 7 here
http://alfassa.com/paper-amuka.pdf

It's always important to distinguish between the 'bidieved' and 'l'chatchila' reasons. Why it started, and the subsequent 'reasons' given.

That's some academic guy's paper, he states:

• Nowhere is it written that prayer at the grave of
Yonatan ben Uziel would bring about “fertility”
or “pregnancy;”

This is simply untrue, based on the sources I linked to.

[PlatinumGuy]

Can we rename this thread Chassidim Vs. Misnagdim Master Thread?

[springles]

Can we rename this thread Chassidim Vs. Misnagdim Master Thread?

I am a misnaged (really prefer the term Litvak) yet seem to disagree with everything Reuven is saying.  So I dont think that thread title would be accurate.

[springles]

I'm referring to page 7 here
http://alfassa.com/paper-amuka.pdf

It's always important to distinguish between the 'bidieved' and 'l'chatchila' reasons. Why it started, and the subsequent 'reasons' given.

That source is the Making of a Gadol, a controversial book in its own right.  Not something I would rely on to make my case.

[Drago]

Everyone should just ask their Rav or Rebbe, what they should do............Assuming they have a Rav or rebbe that they actually have a real and personal relationship with.
It seems that Satturn is pretty fluent on the topic, and is backing his opinions with some solid proof, not just some books or video clips.
 Satturn have you asked your Rebbe? (I assume you do have a Rebbe,) What about Reuven?
Ill get off my soapbox now

I did, and hence I went up.
And my Rav is what you would call chardal/yeshivish I guess.

And with regards to the forgery, does anyone else notice a pattern that anytime a big rabbinical figure wrote s/t that doesnt fit in with ppl's view of how things 'should be', forgery is the first cry.
After all, wasn't moreh nevuchim also a forgery for so many years?

But the last thing I will do is besmirch those who don't go up. If their Rav told them based on their halachik research that it's wrong, then they shouldn't go up. But I do doubt that most rabbanim have actually looked into the sugya all that much.

That source is the Making of a Gadol, a controversial book in its own right.  Not something I would rely on to make my case.

I'm not too familiar with all the reasons for the cherem, but I think it had to do more with ppl not being happy with him revealing the stories more than inaccuracies.

Either way, I'll put a note in the kotel for $4 for someone. I think the title of the thread should be changed to reflect this.

[Drago]

And just to add in a pet peeve of mine.
The chareidi community is often very vocal about protecting cemeteries, chillul shabbos, etc.
But I have yet to see one demonstration protesting the constant bizayon on har habayis. From the Arab's constant digging, to ppl treating the place like a soccer park. (There are many open areas up there since the whole complex is around 40 acres, and arab kids often play soccer up there.)
I would hope at the very least that this would be on their radar even if they don't go up there. Although happily enough, more and more chareidim are starting to go up, although its still a drop in the bucket.

[PlatinumGuy]

But the last thing I will do is besmirch those who don't go up. If their Rav told them based on their halachik research that it's wrong, then they shouldn't go up. But I do doubt that most rabbanim have actually looked into the sugya all that much.

Huh?
It is the known opinion of R Elyashiv, and every one of his predecessors (non zionist gedolim). Is that not enough?
And nobody has to research it, because we are obligated to trust them.

[satturn]

And just to add in a pet peeve of mine.
The chareidi community is often very vocal about protecting cemeteries, chillul shabbos, etc.
But I have yet to see one demonstration protesting the constant bizayon on har habayis. From the Arab's constant digging, to ppl treating the place like a soccer park. (There are many open areas up there since the whole complex is around 40 acres, and arab kids often play soccer up there.)
I would hope at the very least that this would be on their radar even if they don't go up there. Although happily enough, more and more chareidim are starting to go up, although its still a drop in the bucket.

What i have heard from a few people (i don't necessarily agree, but i hear a strong point)- that in our generation,every religious site unfortunately becomes a tourist attraction. If we had control of Har Habayis- it would be full of have dressed tourist with cameras, full of jews who never went to the mikva, and probably have a plethora of gift shops and restaurants. Now that the muslims are in charge, they at least require the woman to be fully covered (even more than the regular get up- there is a special clothes they where when they go up), there are no shops- non Muslims are generally forbidden- so no tourism- and at least there is some form of kovod for the place!

I don't fully agree- but if it was under Israeli rule- the rules of democracy forbid them from restricting access- which would inevitably create a massive desecration of the holiest place on earth.