Lakewood NJ Master Thread

[YitzyS]

I'm in middle of sending my letter why all lakewood stores should ban credit cards.

Credit Cards actually do make prices go up. You see it clearly in gas stations (cash price $1.79, credit price &1.89). Though credit card companies cannot be expected to care about anything more than their own pocket, the voice of Lakewood could be expected to care about the overall economy of the community.

I read the letter again and I realized that it's not even addressed towards the voice owner rather it is addressed toward the people of Lakewood. So it's more equivalent to a letter to customers saying that they shouldn't use credit cards because it will make prices go up, which may in fact be a valid letter (except for the fact that it will only work if everyone is in it together).
Regarding the assumptions made in the letter, they may be far fetched. I'll leave that up to the people who know the topic.

[grodnoking]

I disagree.
While it was a nicely written letter, his entire thought process was pretty naive while making wildly false assumptions.
I'm not surprised the Voice printed it because they will gain business if Lakewooders believe that stores are paying out tons of money for the rewards program.

Very true. Now people will use it even more, because "why should I loose out when prices go up because of other people using the card" so they'll use the card too.

[yoohoo]

What date is mid winter this year?

[Dawie]

What date is mid winter this year?

1/29 -31

[avrumy22]

Quick OCR (May be buggy)


Dear voice,

SCAM ALERT: VOICE REWARDS

A new phenomenon recently started in Lakewood. A new loyalty program took root, known as Voice Rewards, named after the initiator, the Voice of Lakewood. The business model is basically this. The Voice issues loyalty cards to the public, who present the cards in the local participating stores. The customer gets a percentage back on every purchase, and the participating stores get higher traffic because the customers will gravitate to the stores that offer it. Sounds smart, no? No! It is one of the worst things that ever happened in Lakewood. Allow me to explain. Let's take a closer look at the business model. Every time a purchase is made, a percentage is going back to the customer. This percentage is furnished by the store owner. Another percentage, also furnished by the store owner, is going to the Voice, as a fee for participation in their program. The stores are told that it is worthwhile for them to pay these percentages, because it will drive sales, and they'll make more money overall.
The problem is as follows. Although there are many stores that haven't yet joined the program, if the program proves successful and the participating stores gain new customers, then the rest of the stores will follow suit. If a store and their competition both accept Voice Rewards. then the program will stop generating them any new customers. The only change that will happen is that the store will be stuck giving back a percentage of every purchase made, twofold: once to the customer, and once to the Voice. What will eventually happen is that the stores will have to raise their prices to reflect the loss of revenue caused by those percentages. So at the end of the day, the customer will be paying more because of the rewards. But the price increase will be more than the rewards they're receiving, because the price increase will also include the amount that the store is losing because of the percentage that the Voice is getting
On the other hand, if the program does not prove worthwhile, and fails to bring the participating stores more customers, then the participating stores will end up raising prices anyway, to cover for the percentages. A third possibility is a scenario in which the program will prove itself worthwhile, and when the non-participating stores want to join, they will be barred from participation. This is hard to imagine, because what is stopping the Voice from accepting them and thereby making moneyon their transactions as well?
If the voice does indeed vouch to deny them entry, there would be two possible results. One: these stores would lower their prices to stay competitive, thereby keeping their customers, and deeming the program ineffective The participating stores would therefore be pressed to raise their prices to compensate for the percentages or the other possible result (of barring stores from joining) would be that the non-participating stores would raise their prices to compensate for their lost customers. This would result in non-participating stores becoming more expensive.
In short, the Voice is skimming a percentage off every purchase that takes place in Lakewood, and although the stores are now swallowing that cost, eventually that cost will get stuck onto the consumer. Money that now balances our local economy is being tactfully siphoned out by the Voice of Lakewood. (The reason why this is different from any standard loyalty program, is that most loyalty programs are run by the store, so there's third party skimming
off money) So my fellow Lakewooders, before you get all excited and go out to pickupyour voice Rewards cards, think that maybe the best thing for you would be perhaps if we all boycott this movement.
We might miss out on some slight savings now, but itsave us much more in perpetuity.

Yona Bellar

Ari Berkowitz Responds:

Thank you for your insightful points. That's exactly what the Coffee Room is for: to invite healthy debate.

excellent letter. I had these issues with the voice rewards and a few store owners i spoke to felt the same. In no way will VR (voice rewards, not to be confused with vanilla reloads) benefit the stores. One store owner I spoke to is thinking about raising his prices 5% across the board. A totally worthless program.

[RavKahaneTzadak]

I was impressed that The Voice even printed that letter.
If they cannot offer a response to it, proving it wrong, I will definitely not be using it and will try to make sure other people stop using it too. It does not benefit anybody besides The Voice.
Can anybody post a lucid and coherent argument to the article proving it wrong?

[avrumy22]

I was impressed that The Voice even printed that letter.
If they cannot offer a response to it, proving it wrong, I will definitely not be using it and will try to make sure other people stop using it too. It does not benefit anybody besides The Voice.
Can anybody post a lucid and coherent argument to the article proving it wrong?

I am quote shocked that they printed it.

[moko]

No way. Just curious, why aren't askanim and Agudas Yisroel busy here as they are in Rockland county? Both situations are very similar.

agudas yisrael only got involved after the state usurped the local democratic process. They didn't not get involved with the local issue itself.

[Freddie]

Why are you even discussing this? the guy clearly has no concept of how a business works.

[MarkS]

Why are you even discussing this? the guy clearly has no concept of how a business works.

While not all the points of the article are valid, many were.  Keep in mind, at the end of the day the main beneficiary of this program is the voice.  They basically inserted themselves into every business siphoning off some of their profits.

[aygart]

While not all the points of the article are valid, many were.  Keep in mind, at the end of the day the main beneficiary of this program is the voice.  They basically inserted themselves into every business siphoning off some of their profits.

Well they are an advertising business. Businesses will only join if they feel it beneficial to them.

[yuneeq]

Well they are an advertising business. Businesses will only join if they feel it beneficial to them.

+1

[MarkS]

Well they are an advertising business. Businesses will only join if they feel it beneficial to them.

Right but when all the other stores have it, they're not joining because joining is beneficial, rather because not joining is detrimental.

So they've created a bully tactic to force everyone to pay them off so that their business isn't lost to others.

[yuneeq]

Right but when all the other stores have it, they're not joining because joining is beneficial, rather because not joining is detrimental.

So they've created a bully tactic to force everyone to pay them off so that their business isn't lost to others.

So in essence what you're saying is that all advertising is evil, correct?

A few stores pay the Voice to advertise to get business, and then their competitors have to pay up to the bullies, or else they lose business.

[grodnoking]

So in essence what you're saying is that all advertising is evil, correct?

A few stores pay the Voice to advertise to get business, and then their competitors have to pay up to the bullies who force everyone to pay them to advertise, or else they lose business.

[MarkS]

So in essence what you're saying is that all advertising is evil, correct?

A few stores pay the Voice to advertise to get business, and then their competitors have to pay up to the bullies, or else they lose business.

As a matter of fact, in Lakewood/frum community it has gotten out of hand with the number of advertisers. If someone wants to put out an ad for everyone to see they need to put it in:
1)The Voice
2)Lakewood Shopper
3)Lakewood Weekly
4)Yated
5)Haamodia
6)FJJ
7)Mishpacha
8)Bina
9)Ami
10)YWN
11)The Lakewood Scoop
12)Matzav

etc etc.

Many only read 1 or two of them so people end up needing to advertise all over to get a message out. It ends up taking a huge advertising campaign each week. Who gains from the multiple ads?? The advertising agency! Not the stores. If there was one medium like in out of town places you would put in 1 ad and everyone sees it. Obviously I'm not against capitalism and if 100 people want to open competing magazines go right ahead. And if the voice makes a rewards program they're entitled as well. The fact is that it's questionable if it'll bring in more business (and the more successful the program is in attracting stores the less extra business it brings each store). The only sure thing here is that the Voice makes money by inserting themselves into each sale.

[grodnoking]

As a matter of fact, in Lakewood/frum community it has gotten out of hand with the number of advertisers. If someone wants to put out an ad for everyone to see they need to put it in:
1)The Voice
2)Lakewood Shopper
3)Lakewood Weekly
4)Yated
5)Haamodia
6)FJJ
7)Mishpacha
8)Bina
9)Ami
10)YWN
11)The Lakewood Scoop
12)Matzav

etc etc.

Many only read 1 or two of them so people end up needing to advertise all over to get a message out. It ends up taking a huge advertising campaign each week. Who gains from the multiple ads?? The advertising agency! Not the stores. If there was one medium like in out of town places you would put in 1 ad and everyone sees it. Obviously I'm not against capitalism and if 100 people want to open competing magazines go right ahead. And if the voice makes a rewards program they're entitled as well. The fact is that it's questionable if it'll bring in more business (and the more successful the program is in attracting stores the less extra business it brings each store). The only sure thing here is that the Voice makes money by inserting themselves into each sale.

At this point the most bang for your buck in Lakewood would be a publicity stunt. The problem is making one that conforms to Lakewood society. Like that lose4autism video, yapchik will have great coverage.

[yuneeq]

As a matter of fact, in Lakewood/frum community it has gotten out of hand with the number of advertisers. If someone wants to put out an ad for everyone to see they need to put it in:
1)The Voice
2)Lakewood Shopper
3)Lakewood Weekly
4)Yated
5)Haamodia
6)FJJ
7)Mishpacha
8)Bina
9)Ami
10)YWN
11)The Lakewood Scoop
12)Matzav

etc etc.

Many only read 1 or two of them so people end up needing to advertise all over to get a message out. It ends up taking a huge advertising campaign each week. Who gains from the multiple ads?? The advertising agency! Not the stores. If there was one medium like in out of town places you would put in 1 ad and everyone sees it. Obviously I'm not against capitalism and if 100 people want to open competing magazines go right ahead. And if the voice makes a rewards program they're entitled as well. The fact is that it's questionable if it'll bring in more business (and the more successful the program is in attracting stores the less extra business it brings each store). The only sure thing here is that the Voice makes money by inserting themselves into each sale.

You need to learn a little about marketing. A business does  not need to reach everyone directly.
A business has to decide what their demographic and advertise where it makes sense.
All these media outlets would not exist if they were all a replica of the same news and targeting the same audience. A smart business owner does research and figures out the best way to reach his audience, whether through newspapers, magazines, Instagram, shul billboards, email blasts, website ads, etc. They can also do viral word of mouth marketing.

I don't feel bad for any business that signed up for voice rewards and gets extra business because of it. If they were ahead of the trend and will make more money, good for them. You can't sob over every poor business decision made by businesses out there.

[grodnoking]

You need to learn a little about marketing. A business does  not need to reach everyone directly.
A business has to decide what their demographic and advertise where it makes sense.
All these media outlets would not exist if they were all a replica of the same news and targeting the same audience. A smart business owner does research and figures out the best way to reach his audience, whether through newspapers, magazines, Instagram, shul billboards, email blasts, website ads, etc. They can also do viral word of mouth marketing.

But all that exists in Lakewood are those magazines and the little billboards

[MarkS]

You need to learn a little about marketing. A business does  not need to reach everyone directly.
A business has to decide what their demographic and advertise where it makes sense.
All these media outlets would not exist if they were all a replica of the same news and targeting the same audience. A smart business owner does research and figures out the best way to reach his audience, whether through newspapers, magazines, Instagram, shul billboards, email blasts, website ads, etc. They can also do viral word of mouth marketing.

I don't feel bad for any business that signed up for voice rewards and gets extra business because of it. If they were ahead of the trend and will make more money, good for them. You can't sob over every poor business decision made by businesses out there.

I don't own a business and I'm not sobbing. That being said, I guess people just aren't as smart as you because everytime there's a dinner event sale etc I see the same ad in 6-8 different places.

Also, I have nothing against the voice and wish them luck in conquering the world. I was just saying that my opinion is that this helps them more than it helps anyone. Smart move on their part.