Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[aygart]

(Unless there is some kind of inherent reliability built into the leadership of the organization..)

You killed it

[churnbabychurn]

This
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13937.msg1860922.msg#1860922

OMG

[Ergel]

The fact that you think that someone with a different hashkafa then you is chazer treif is frightening.
I heard from a Rov of mine who went with his brother to Rav Shlomo Zalman - his brother is a chareidy RY, he's not as chareidy. When he moved to the holy land, he sent his kids to Ma'arava. His brother was not happy with this decision and brought him to Rav Shlomo Zalman so Rav Shlomo Zalman could yell at him. "Unfortunately", that's not what happened. Rav Shlomo Zalman's exact words (in Yiddish) were "do you have a monopoly on hashkafos". I don't mean to say that Rav Shlomo Zalman agreed with Ma'arava (he definitely didn't). Just that he was able to be confident enough with his own hashkafos to know when others were inside the purview of Orthodoxy and accept them as such

[henche]

If we use your metrics of judging a kashrus organization by it's hashkafos, (politics) imho OU is chazer treif.

Xactly. That was aygart's point in referencing the eidah (haraah)

[moko]

Come to think of it, they all should.
T

I'm calling for an external annual audit process for all hechsherim.
I would donate money to get this started. We need an organization that will give an audit opinion on the respective kashrus organizations processes and controls. To verify that they are keeping and upholding their own standards and procedures.


 (Unless there is some kind of inherent reliability built into the leadership of the organization..)

There is an existing organization called AKO. They have a minimum set of standards for membership.

[churnbabychurn]

The fact that you think that someone with a different hashkafa then you is chazer treif is frightening.
I heard from a Rov of mine who went with his brother to Rav Shlomo Zalman - his brother is a chareidy RY, he's not as chareidy. When he moved to the holy land, he sent his kids to Ma'arava. His brother was not happy with this decision and brought him to Rav Shlomo Zalman so Rav Shlomo Zalman could yell at him. "Unfortunately", that's not what happened. Rav Shlomo Zalman's exact words (in Yiddish) were "do you have a monopoly on hashkafos". I don't mean to say that Rav Shlomo Zalman agreed with Ma'arava (he definitely didn't). Just that he was able to be confident enough with his own hashkafos to know when others were inside the purview of Orthodoxy and accept them as such

I didn't say that. There was a big IF. if we apply politics to kashrus then we have a problem. This is something henche was doing. Not I.

[henche]

I didn't say that. There was a big IF. if we apply politics to kashrus then we have a problem. This is something henche was doing. Not I.

My mistake. I thought that was what you were doing with the ou

[churnbabychurn]

My mistake. I thought that was what you were doing with the ou

The OU the issue is that there is no figure head or rabbinic board that the organization answers to, (that I personally know of,) and would be comfortable with blindly relying on.

[moko]

The OU the issue is that there is no figure head or rabbinic board that the organization answers to, (that I personally know of,) and would be comfortable with blindly relying on.

The OU answers to Rabbi Genack, the OK answers to Rabbi Levy, the Kof-K answers to Rabbi Senter, and the Star-K to Dr. Pollack. The cRc actually answers to the Bais Din (Rabbis Ries and Schwartz)

[Ergel]

The OU the issue is that there is no figure head or rabbinic board that the organization answers to, (that I personally know of,) and would be comfortable with blindly relying on.

You're really going to take the drastic step of not eating OU certified products because of that? Why not learn the facts first? As stated above, in the industry, in terms of hashgacha the OU is know for being excellent. Regarding what shitos they rely on, they are quite open about that. In terms of halachik decisions, Rabbi Genack is in charge. However, shailos are brought to Rav Schachter (I know he's treif in your book despite being a tremendous Talmud Chacham, etc.) (and used to be Rav Belsky as well).

[Ergel]

The OU answers to Rabbi Genack, the OK answers to Rabbi Levy, the Kof-K answers to Rabbi Senter, and the Star-K to Dr. Pollack. The cRc actually answers to the Bais Din (Rabbis Ries and Schwartz)

Uh oh, now he can't ear cRc either

[skyguy918]

You're really going to take the drastic step of not eating OU certified products because of that? Why not learn the facts first? As stated above, in the industry, in terms of hashgacha the OU is know for being excellent. Regarding what shitos they rely on, they are quite open about that. In terms of halachik decisions, Rabbi Genack is in charge. However, shailos are brought to Rav Schachter (I know he's treif in your book despite being a tremendous Talmud Chacham, etc.) (and used to be Rav Belsky as well).

Just checked again with an OU RC I know and he said they 'replaced' R' Belsky with R' Osher Weiss, R' Dovid Feinstein and R' Mordechai Gross. I assume they also still bring shailos to R' Hershel Schachter.

[churnbabychurn]

The OU answers to Rabbi Genack, the OK answers to Rabbi Levy, the Kof-K answers to Rabbi Senter, and the Star-K to Dr. Pollack. The cRc actually answers to the Bais Din (Rabbis Ries and Schwartz)

Star k is the responsibility of rabbi heinamann.
Rabbi westhim is the responsibility of rabbi Westheime. Belze is the responsibility of the belz beis din. Eida is the responsibility of the eida beis din. Rabbi landau is etc. London beis din etc.
Even KCL of lakwood officially answers to a rabbinic board.
You get the pattern, it's worldwide.
The OU and maybe choK and OK are outliers here.

[churnbabychurn]

Uh oh, now he can't ear cRc either

Lol. If rabbi Shechter told me he takes responsibility for the OU I would be much more comfortable. Its not like I wouldn't eat in his house..

[churnbabychurn]

Let's try an experiment. Replace the OU symbol with a stamp saying "behashgachas rabbi Genack". I wonder if people's perception of the stellar OU brand would change.

[ExGingi]

Rabbi westhim is the responsibility of rabbi Westheime.
You get the pattern, it's worldwide.
The OU and maybe choK and OK are outliers here.

Could you explain how OU, Kof-K and OK are outlier.

FWIW, this goes quite a few years back, but I have heard from both mashgichim and from establishment owners that Kof-K was a lot more serious and stringent in keeping to their standards and having proper Hashgocho than the Star-K.

And here's a direct quote from someone on a whatsapp group that I am a member of, who works with all Kashrus agencies that certify in the country where he is located:

"The main issue with him and others like him is that they are are equipped to deal with so many plants on a mehadrin level.

"They don't have the staff and don't have the organizational skills."

"And that is how he loses the edge."

Or another quote:

"[name omitted, was on your list above] has become the default Hashgacha for anyone who doesnt want to put his own name for various reasons."

[churnbabychurn]

Could you explain how OU, Kof-K and OK are outlier.

FWIW, this goes quite a few years back, but I have heard from both mashgichim and from establishment owners that Kof-K was a lot more serious and stringent in keeping to their standards and having proper Hashgocho than the Star-K.

There is no well respected rabbinic figure who is responsible.
The OU has done a good job using big halachic names to answer their shailos, and thus the perception that somehow rabbi's belski, Shechter, Weiss , feinstein etc "approve" and are giving the hechsher. This is sheker.

[Shkop]

Lol. If rabbi Shechter told me he takes responsibility for the OU I would be much more comfortable. Its not like I wouldn't eat in his house..

Who is Rabbi Shechter?

[moko]

I'm going to bow out now. My personal experience isn't going to convince anyone one way or the other.

[ExGingi]

I'm going to bow out now. My personal experience isn't going to convince anyone one way or the other.

Your personal experience is probably the most valuable input here. Coming from real knowledge and experience rather than perception (and dare I say deception?).