Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[Shkop]

IMHO that could be either a form of chauvinism, or simply a practical way to subjectively assess Yiras Shomayim (to the "extent" a human being might be able to assess such), as it might look differently in different communities. For example: a Litvisher or a Yekke that trims his beard might be fully Yerei Shomayim, but someone who comes from a Lubavitch community and would trim his beard wouldn't pass basic screening. Or how about a shochet that would eat non-CY? Would the OU disqualify him from what they would certify as Glatt Kosher? I would find it hard to believe that a Chassidishe Hechsher would approve of such a shochet.

I'm going with $$. If chassidim only eat chasidish shchieta, despite it amounting to nothing, no going concern will be interested in hiring misnagdish shochtim since misnagdim do not disqualify based on not learning Tanya or not using a mikva daily, while chasidim do. 

Also, people with real Y.S. can detect if someone is lacking it regardless of his affiliation, so that argument doesn't fly.

[ExGingi]

The term "Glatt" has been used to mean a higher standard of kashrus for as long as I've been alive. No-one who says Glatt kosher about chickens (or pizza) is referring to the lungs.

Might be used by others. I don't.

@shaulyaakov might also have a problem with the posuk והוא כזרע גד לבן or for that matter any reference to an attribute of something that isn't identical in other attributes. I only referenced Empire for the size (within the kosher market).

[shaulyaakov]

Might be used by others. I don't.

@shaulyaakov might also have a problem with the posuk והוא כזרע גד לבן or for that matter any reference to an attribute of something that isn't identical in other attributes. I only referenced Empire for the size (within the kosher market).

You said that your statement applies especially to something the size of empire, not exclusively things that are the size of  empire. If you could clarify what you meant by the claim that nobody who takes glatt kosher seriously eats ou, it would be helpful.

[ExGingi]

Based on your clarifications and comments further down the thread you have no basis to say that the OU shochtim are less yorei shomayim than anyone else, and as such you should retract this comment and ask them all mechila. You may have meant something different, but read what you wrote, it's fairly clear that that is what you are saying.

Where did you see me say that OU shochtim are any less Yirei Shomayim?

Now that I reread you quoting what I wrote, I think I could have used a better choice of words and written "seek out" or "reach out" to the OU, instead of "rely on the OU". But even with my less than perfect phrasing of my sentence, if you reread it the way it was written, I didn't make any judgment about the shochtim used by the OU (that for all I know might all be Chassidishe yidden).

[thaber]

Where did you see me say that OU shochtim are any less Yirei Shomayim?

Now that I reread you quoting what I wrote, I think I could have used a better choice of words and written "seek out" or "reach out" to the OU, instead of "rely on the OU". But even with my less than perfect phrasing of my sentence, if you reread it the way it was written, I didn't make any judgment about the shochtim used by the OU (that for all I know might all be Chassidishe yidden).

I reread about five times before posting because I was surprised by you. You gave a drasha about yiras shamayim being the integral thing in a shochet, and concluded with "It would be an extremely long stretch to think that anyone that really cares about Glatt Kosher meat would rely on the OU for that".
Can't figure out any other way to read it.

[moko]

Did they do their own shechita?

I believe so. They definitely did nikkur

[ExGingi]

I reread about five times before posting because I was surprised by you. You gave a drasha about yiras shamayim being the integral thing in a shochet, and concluded with "It would be an extremely long stretch to think that anyone that really cares about Glatt Kosher meat would rely on the OU for that".
Can't figure out any other way to read it.

Whenever a statement doesn't look right, trying to turn it around, or put oneself into it, might help clarify.

I conceded that my choice of words was wrong in writing "rely" instead of "seek". I can see how you and others might have read into my words other than what was meant, but in context, responding to a post about dual Hashgocho, with one being the OU and the other being a "Heimishe", I stand by my statement, that unless we're talking about an operation the size of Empire, the OU is not the primary Hashgocho sought out by the company and its clients that are looking for Glatt Kosher meat.

Building upon other posts in this thread, how many Glatt Kosher consumers do you know that would pick 999 as their brand of choice?

[aygart]

I believe so. They definitely did nikkur

Once upon a time they may have, but even while they were still open I had been told by those in the OU that there was no shechita under only the OU. Nikkur is something which is sometimes local.

[aygart]

Building upon other posts in this thread, how many Glatt Kosher consumers do you know that would pick 999 as their brand of choice?

nein nein nein?

[ExGingi]

nein nein nein?

Indeed. But one would need a cassette player for that. 

[aygart]

As much as I think about this, I think that those talmidei chachomim were either clueless (as I believe the vast majority of the oilom is), or were just pulling a cover over your eyes (which you took hook, bait and sinker) in order to obfuscate the truth.

I have asked a good friend and neighbor who is a shochet what "Chassidishe Shechita" means. He confirmed what I suspected, that all it means is that the shochet belongs to the same or similar community as the Rov certifying the shechita (and obviously acts as would be expected from a Yerei Shomayim in said community).

IMHO that could be either a form of chauvinism, or simply a practical way to subjectively assess Yiras Shomayim (to the "extent" a human being might be able to assess such), as it might look differently in different communities. For example: a Litvisher or a Yekke that trims his beard might be fully Yerei Shomayim, but someone who comes from a Lubavitch community and would trim his beard wouldn't pass basic screening. Or how about a shochet that would eat non-CY? Would the OU disqualify him from what they would certify as Glatt Kosher? I would find it hard to believe that a Chassidishe Hechsher would approve of such a shochet.

It was definitely not someone ignorant but may have been a smokescreen. I really didn't put much thought into it because whether it is real or chauvinism is not really relevant to me. (I do vaguely remember you having written about wanting davka a lubavitch shochet)

what about someone who grows his beard simply to get a job?

[aygart]

Indeed. But one would need a cassette player for that. 

2019 updated Cassette to MP3 Converter, USB Cassette Player to MP3 Converter for PC， Laptop ，Mac with Headphones，from Tapes to Mp3 ($21.99)

[thaber]

Whenever a statement doesn't look right, trying to turn it around, or put oneself into it, might help clarify.

I conceded that my choice of words was wrong in writing "rely" instead of "seek". I can see how you and others might have read into my words other than what was meant, but in context, responding to a post about dual Hashgocho, with one being the OU and the other being a "Heimishe", I stand by my statement, that unless we're talking about an operation the size of Empire, the OU is not the primary Hashgocho sought out by the company and its clients that are looking for Glatt Kosher meat.

Building upon other posts in this thread, how many Glatt Kosher consumers do you know that would pick 999 as their brand of choice?

Take teva for example. The shechita is in California. Is the primary the OU, or rabbi Miller, formerly of the OU and now a rov in Monsey? And even if the latter, why is he better now without the weight of the OU behind him then he was with it?

[ExGingi]

Take teva for example. The shechita is in California. Is the primary the OU, or rabbi Miller, formerly of the OU and now a rov in Monsey? And even if the latter, why is he better now without the weight of the OU behind him then he was with it?

Why do you keep on going back to the "better" argument, when I clearly stated and clarified that it's about the marketing, and about the facts of which is the primary Hechsher?

[thaber]

Building upon other posts in this thread, how many Glatt Kosher consumers do you know that would pick 999 as their brand of choice?

As far as this, doesn't seem like anyone has been able to define chassidishe shechita other than 'he looks like me' so as far as kashrus is concerned what people pick is no rayeh.

[ExGingi]

As far as this, doesn't seem like anyone has been able to define chassidishe shechita other than 'he looks like me' so as far as kashrus is concerned what people pick is no rayeh.

Tell that to countless people and companies along history that might have had superior products and services but bad marketing.

[moko]

Take teva for example. The shechita is in California. Is the primary the OU, or rabbi Miller, formerly of the OU and now a rov in Monsey? And even if the latter, why is he better now without the weight of the OU behind him then he was with it?

some background on R' Dovid Miller.
His initial claim to fame is that he was an RC at the OU in the Meat Department for many years. He then left to found his own hashgacha. His next claim to fame was his hashgacha on the highly acclaimed Pelleh Poultry (which for some reason no is doubting) and then started giving hashgacha to Teva kosher foods which is a brand of Golden West Food Group. He is the primary hashgacha for both Pelleh and Teva. This is first hand information.

[zh cohen]

what about someone who grows his beard simply to get a job?

The beard is a siman,  not a sibah

[zh cohen]

As far as this, doesn't seem like anyone has been able to define chassidishe shechita other than 'he looks like me'.

I think I did better than that here:

My $.02 on chassidishe (or more precisely Lubavitcher) shchita.

1- We believe that learning chassidus enhances ones Yiras shomayim. So if you have someone who has yiras shomayim and learns chassidus, they are preferable to someone who has yiras shomayim but does not learn chassidus. Obviously, if the person is lacking in yiras shomayim, the fact that he opens a Tanya for 5 minutes in the morning, does not qualify him to be a shochet.

2- Separately, when it comes to shchita, the halacha is that a person should prefer a situation where he knows and trusts the shochet, to a situation where he only knows and trusts the Rov. The closest most people can get to that standard today, when the shochet is not coming to your backyard to shecht, is to give preference to someone from thier own community.

3- Regarding beards, mikvah etc... For someone from a community where those things are considered a requirement, it shows a lack of yiras shomayim to be lax in those areas. So while a lack of a beard says (little to) nothing about the yiras shomayim of a litvishe shochet, it does disqualify a Lubavitcher shochet.

[aygart]

The beard is a siman,  not a sibah

If i can do it in order to get a job then it is no longer a siman