Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[aygart]

The נודע ביהודה is talking about a case which is” אין כאן שום ספק,ובודאי הם בני יומן”.

Okay, so what is the metzius here?

[PlatinumGuy]

Not exactly, bishul mimur is a separate machlokas ha'poskim since the main isur of bishul akum was because of chasnus, and the ציץ אליעזר gives many reasons in his long tshuva to be matir, so he uses the svara of the Chazon Ish as a last צירוף. But in fact the חוט השני I copied above clearly says that according the Chazon Ish bishul of a מחלל שבת בפרהסיא would not be permissible if we generally treat bishul mimur like bishul akum, as well as the Chazon Ish himself writes the same in a letter.

There is no such letter from the Chazon Ish. He clearly writes וכן הוא לכל הדינים and is matir Chilul Shabbos for that reason. The ציץ אליעזר also interpreted it as going Lekula as well.

[PlatinumGuy]

Okay, so what is the metzius here?

So long as you don't know, there is no way it can be ודאי בן יומו. It's at the very least a Safe and you're back to סתם כלים

[aygart]

So long as you don't know, there is no way it can be ודאי בן יומו. It's at the very least a Safe and you're back to סתם כלים

This is your own reasoning. Sounds to me like a safek chisaron yedia just because you are making assumptions about the processes.

[PlatinumGuy]

This is your own reasoning. Sounds to me like a safek chisaron yedia just because you are making assumptions about the processes.

Every plate in a goy's house is the same safek since you don't know what he did with it

[aygart]

Every plate in a goy's house is the same safek since you don't know what he did with it

So what. Is this a metzius like a coffee house and restaurant or is it like a goy's house? You keep basing on your assumption that there operation works a certain way but have not backed that up in the slightest. The second safek of pogem b'oso tavshil is also more questionable considering there are the same meals getting served over and over again.

[bubkiz]

Costco Kirkland Talapia - has an OU.
Is there any chance that they are checking Simanim or is this relying on the general OU kula?

[ExGingi]

Costco Kirkland Talapia - has an OU.
Is there any chance that they are checking Simanim or is this relying on the general OU kula?

Check to see if there's a small piece of skin left on next to the tail. Kashrus organizations that are makpid either have that or have a mashgiach temidi. I don't believe OU has a mashgiach temidi for fish (possibly unless it's OUP).

[PlatinumGuy]

So what. Is this a metzius like a coffee house and restaurant or is it like a goy's house? You keep basing on your assumption that there operation works a certain way but have not backed that up in the slightest. The second safek of pogem b'oso tavshil is also more questionable considering there are the same meals getting served over and over again.

Those meals are Kosher, the issue brought up was if a different meal was eaten on it for whatever reason

The נודע ביהודה is talking about a place where there is no safek and it is ודאי that the plate was used. So long as you don't know that, it's by definition a safek.

Any operation the scale of Elal would own many multiples of the amount of plates used on daily flights that there would be no need to reuse them within 24h. That's obvious to anybody who isn't trying to be pedantic.

[EliJelly]

There is no such letter from the Chazon Ish. He clearly writes וכן הוא לכל הדינים and is matir Chilul Shabbos for that reason. The ציץ אליעזר also interpreted it as going Lekula as well.

Too anxious to wait for the letter so you rather jump to your own conclusions?? It's in פאר הדור חלק ד עמוד ר׳ז, I'm copying it here.
I'm not going to repeat myself over and over again, I've addressed both of your points already.

[Yehuda57]

Any operation the scale of Elal would own many multiples of the amount of plates used on daily flights that there would be no need to reuse them within 24h. That's obvious to anybody who isn't trying to be pedantic.

I haven't been following this conversation that closely, but this statement is not at all obvious, and I'd venture a guess you likely have never seen a commercial kitchen if you think it is. The opposite is true.

Think about how you would run things if you have hundreds of plates being used every day. You have stacks and stacks of plates, and the ones on top get used, come back to the kitchen, get washed, and get placed ON TOP of the stacks to be used again. The busier the kitchen is the MORE likely the keilim are to be bnei yoman.

[skyguy918]

I haven't been following this conversation that closely, but this statement is not at all obvious, and I'd venture a guess you likely have never seen a commercial kitchen if you think it is. The opposite is true.

Think about how you would run things if you have hundreds of plates being used every day. You have stacks and stacks of plates, and the ones on top get used, come back to the kitchen, get washed, and get placed ON TOP of the stacks to be used again. The busier the kitchen is the MORE likely the keilim are to be bnei yoman.

No comparison between keilim in the commercial kitchen to keilim on the plane.

[ExGingi]

No comparison between keilim in the commercial kitchen to keilim on the plane.

The ovens are definitely בני יומם.

[Yehuda57]

No comparison between keilim in the commercial kitchen to keilim on the plane.

Why? Where are the keilim on the plane coming from? Commercial kitchens. Besides, the question was one of scale. PG asserted that El Al's scale was SO LARGE that it ensured that the keilim are not bnei yoman. I'm saying the bigger the scale, the bigger chance they are bnei yoman.

[skyguy918]

The ovens are definitely בני יומם.

I didn't bother going back to track every step of this conversation, but I was basing this off the initial posting of the interview with Rabbi Elefant, and PG's comment on that interview. Rabbi Elefant made no mention of the ovens being a problem, only the plates/silverware. I assume even the non-mehadrin business meals are always supposed to be warmed up double-wrapped.

Why? Where are the keilim on the plane coming from? Commercial kitchens. Besides, the question was one of scale. PG asserted that El Al's scale was SO LARGE that it ensured that the keilim are not bnei yoman. I'm saying the bigger the scale, the bigger chance they are bnei yoman.

"You have stacks and stacks of plates, and the ones on top get used, come back to the kitchen, get washed, and get placed ON TOP of the stacks to be used again." In an airline catering setting, stuff gets washed and packed for transport, not washed and sent out to the customers setting. Those containers that are packed for transport are not like your stacks of plates analogy. I'm not opining on whether stam keilim is applicable there, just that the metzius is likely different than your standard commercial kitchen, say in a wedding hall.

[moko]

Rabbi Elefant made no mention of the ovens being a problem, only the plates/silverware.

I've observed flight attendants on many of my flights using the ovens for personal food.
A DL flight attendant BOS-AMS told me that they always use it for personal use.

. I assume even the non-mehadrin business meals are always supposed to be warmed up double-wrapped."

incorrect.

[ExGingi]

I didn't bother going back to track every step of this conversation, but I was basing this off the initial posting of the interview with Rabbi Elefant, and PG's comment on that interview. Rabbi Elefant made no mention of the ovens being a problem, only the plates/silverware. I assume even the non-mehadrin business meals are always supposed to be warmed up double-wrapped.

I just went back to read the interview. You seem to be missing the forest for the trees (or vice versa). Rabbi Elefant is saying what the OU can and does certify, and he basically says that they can only certify and be held responsible for DOUBLE WRAPPED MEALS AND UTENSILS or for food prepared under their supervision.

I would not be surprised if during the interview he also referred to the ovens, but it was edited out (or alternatively he didn't mention it for other reasons). The bottom line is that the OU certifies certain ELAL commissaries, it doesn't certify the meals once any seal or double wrapping is broken.

[skyguy918]

I assume even the non-mehadrin business meals are always supposed to be warmed up double-wrapped.

incorrect.

If you say so - I've not flown Elal in long time, and never in business, and never without ordering mehadrin - so I'll have to take your word for it. But if that's the case, why is he going on about the plates if the metzius is a davar pashut that the food itself is being prepared in a way that assurs it? Seems like a much more fundamental issue.

[ExGingi]

incorrect.

If you say so - I've not flown Elal in long time, and never in business, and never without ordering mehadrin - so I'll have to take your word for it. But if that's the case, why is he going on about the plates if the metzius is a davar pashut that the food itself is being prepared in a way that assurs it? Seems like a much more fundamental issue.

I was shown the certificate that comes with the meals. It says that the food is delivered to the aircraft in sealed containers (under the OU in NY and LA) but "Preparation and service of the food and beverage. As well as Kashruth of the dishes and flatware aboard this aircraft, are certified by the Chief Rabbinate of Israel." (and if I may add: a Mashgiach has not been spotted on their flights).

[ExGingi]

But if that's the case, why is he going on about the plates if the metzius is a davar pashut that the food itself is being prepared in a way that assurs it? Seems like a much more fundamental issue.

Do you really think the OU would be able to keep their contract if he publicly said something like that?