Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[yfr bachur]

Why would an unsigned list using irrelevantunknown parameters have any relevance to what you should or shouldn't eat?

For starters, it's way way better than the "Theres hebrew writing so it must be kosher" or "My third cousins uncle told him that when he was in Israel 17 years ago, his sons bekius rebbe told him that X (not the app!  ) is acceptable, so I guess we could eat there?" or the "well everyone I know eats there, so it must be good, bec they must be relying on something?"

but mainly: ITS A GOOD LIST. You are welcome to show it to ANY kashrus knowledgeable rav you want, and aside from modifications due to politics and/or personal affiliations, at most they will quible with moving a couple of hechseherim up or down a level or two - not "this list is crazy, and is based on fantasy"

To define: Politics and Affliation = Anash not eating sheiris (Bec of Rav Shach), Litvish not eating anything affiliated with Chabad (Bec of Rav Shach), "I only eat Eida", ect
 = "I am part of the Eida, and therefore only eat eida", "Can't touch anything sefardik", "well The Ruv started the Belzer Hechsher so that's the only thing we eat", "the medina is aschalta degeula, and is kadosh, so of course the best hechsherim are the Rabbanut", "OU Israel is exactly the same as OU US", "My Rav is Rav Levinger/Aurbach/Shatz/Rupshitz", "It's all political, their all fine", "Aaron Abadi said you can eat anything in israel"....

[JMHO]

For starters, it's way way better than the "Theres hebrew writing so it must be kosher" or "My third cousins uncle told him that when he was in Israel 17 years ago, his sons bekius rebbe told him that X (not the app!  ) is acceptable, so I guess we could eat there?" or the "well everyone I know eats there, so it must be good, bec they must be relying on something?"

but mainly: ITS A GOOD LIST. You are welcome to show it to ANY kashrus knowledgeable rav you want, and aside from modifications due to politics and/or personal affiliations, at most they will quible with moving a couple of hechseherim up or down a level or two - not "this list is crazy, and is based on fantasy"

To define: Politics and Affliation = Anash not eating sheiris (Bec of Rav Shach), Litvish not eating anything affiliated with Chabad (Bec of Rav Shach), "I only eat Eida", ect
 = "I am part of the Eida, and therefore only eat eida", "Can't touch anything sefardik", "well The Ruv started the Belzer Hechsher so that's the only thing we eat", "the medina is aschalta degeula, and is kadosh, so of course the best hechsherim are the Rabbanut", "OU Israel is exactly the same as OU US", "My Rav is Rav Levinger/Aurbach/Shatz/Rupshitz", "It's all political, their all fine", "Aaron Abadi said you can eat anything in israel"....

I'm dizzy...

[avromie7]

For starters, it's way way better than the same as the "Theres hebrew writing so it must be kosher" or "My third cousins uncle told him that when he was in Israel 17 years ago, or the "well everyone I know eats there, so it must be good, bec they must be relying on something?", but not nearly as good as his sons bekius rebbe told him that X (not the app!  ) is acceptable, so I guess we could eat there?"

FTFY

[Essen est zich]

For starters, it's way way better than the "Theres hebrew writing so it must be kosher" or "My third cousins uncle told him that when he was in Israel 17 years ago, his sons bekius rebbe told him that X (not the app!  ) is acceptable, so I guess we could eat there?" or the "well everyone I know eats there, so it must be good, bec they must be relying on something?"

but mainly: ITS A GOOD LIST. You are welcome to show it to ANY kashrus knowledgeable rav you want, and aside from modifications due to politics and/or personal affiliations, at most they will quible with moving a couple of hechseherim up or down a level or two - not "this list is crazy, and is based on fantasy"

To define: Politics and Affliation = Anash not eating sheiris (Bec of Rav Shach), Litvish not eating anything affiliated with Chabad (Bec of Rav Shach), "I only eat Eida", ect
 = "I am part of the Eida, and therefore only eat eida", "Can't touch anything sefardik", "well The Ruv started the Belzer Hechsher so that's the only thing we eat", "the medina is aschalta degeula, and is kadosh, so of course the best hechsherim are the Rabbanut", "OU Israel is exactly the same as OU US", "My Rav is Rav Levinger/Aurbach/Shatz/Rupshitz", "It's all political, their all fine", "Aaron Abadi said you can eat anything in israel"....

It been discussed already... but this is a good summary.

[yfr bachur]

FTFY

No.
You happen not to know what the parameters are, but they are there and based on something. You may not know who did the research but its better than burying your head in the sand.
It's relevance is that for the unknowledgeable it's a start. It's something for the ben chul to take to his Rav/trusted kashrus consultant and ask him if he agrees. Its a framework to use to make heads and tails of the EY kashrus scene - instead of dozens of hechsherim- 7 levels and the start of ranking them.
Its an opportunity to question assumptions you may have made out of possible ignorance
Don't act based on the list, use the list to question how to act. In that way, it is way better.

I'm dizzy...

OK. In short:
Some "Negius" will raise a hechsher for example, If you are a belzer then obviously belz will be on the highest level of your chart.
Some "Negius" will push hechsherim down. An example of this is Talmidim of Rav Shach not eating anything to do with Chabad and vice versa.
Other "Negius" level the chart by establishing the baseline lechatchila at the subpar level...

[TheAsh]

A quick perview of the bottom category shows Hechsheirim which are well known to be unacceptable. So this list is clearly somewhat accurate. So I would want to know why it's being put in that category. And we have the answer right here:Don't know anything about The List but it sure looks like a good rule of the thumb resource.

Znt is also a house hechsher, yet is well known to be reliable.

[TheAsh]

No.
You happen not to know what the parameters are, but they are there and based on something. You may not know who did the research but its better than burying your head in the sand.
It's relevance is that for the unknowledgeable it's a start. It's something for the ben chul to take to his Rav/trusted kashrus consultant and ask him if he agrees. Its a framework to use to make heads and tails of the EY kashrus scene - instead of dozens of hechsherim- 7 levels and the start of ranking them.
Its an opportunity to question assumptions you may have made out of possible ignorance
Don't act based on the list, use the list to question how to act. In that way, it is way better.

OK. In short:
Some "Negius" will raise a hechsher for example, If you are a belzer then obviously belz will be on the highest level of your chart.
Some "Negius" will push hechsherim down. An example of this is Talmidim of Rav Shach not eating anything to do with Chabad and vice versa.
Other "Negius" level the chart by establishing the baseline lechatchila at the subpar level...

Whoever made the lost clearly knows about kashrus here in Israel. You can definitely debate some individual hechsherim (I would place OU Israel and Badatz Levinger higher for example) but overall the list composer knows what is going on. I would also have added on the Rabbanut Mehadrins Kosharot thinks is acceptable on their respective levels - Kosjarot is an excellent resource, politics aside - but the hechshers on the list are well organized.

[imayid2]

Znt is also a house hechsher, yet is well known to be reliable.

And is in a higher category than this one on the list. So clearly they aren’t mindlessly writing off all house hechsherim. But definitely a starting point to understand why it would be subpar as it’s a much more tricky model.

[TheAsh]

For starters, it's way way better than the "Theres hebrew writing so it must be kosher" or "My third cousins uncle told him that when he was in Israel 17 years ago, his sons bekius rebbe told him that X (not the app!  ) is acceptable, so I guess we could eat there?" or the "well everyone I know eats there, so it must be good, bec they must be relying on something?"

but mainly: ITS A GOOD LIST. You are welcome to show it to ANY kashrus knowledgeable rav you want, and aside from modifications due to politics and/or personal affiliations, at most they will quible with moving a couple of hechseherim up or down a level or two - not "this list is crazy, and is based on fantasy"

To define: Politics and Affliation = Anash not eating sheiris (Bec of Rav Shach), Litvish not eating anything affiliated with Chabad (Bec of Rav Shach), "I only eat Eida", ect
 = "I am part of the Eida, and therefore only eat eida", "Can't touch anything sefardik", "well The Ruv started the Belzer Hechsher so that's the only thing we eat", "the medina is aschalta degeula, and is kadosh, so of course the best hechsherim are the Rabbanut", "OU Israel is exactly the same as OU US", "My Rav is Rav Levinger/Aurbach/Shatz/Rupshitz", "It's all political, their all fine", "Aaron Abadi said you can eat anything in israel"....

I find it funny that you write "OU Israel is the same as OU USA" as being political, as the OU themselves state this numerous times on their website. It's the exact same standards (with Israel being stricter about some things)
https://oukosher.org/faqs/ou-israel/

The only people I hear saying it is different is Americans who don't want to eat from dati leumi mashgichim but still want to eat other OU products - the exact definition of being political.

[aygart]

I find it funny that you write "OU Israel is the same as OU USA" as being political, as the OU themselves state this numerous times on their website. It's the exact same standards (with Israel being stricter about some things)
https://oukosher.org/faqs/ou-israel/

The only people I hear saying it is different is Americans who don't want to eat from dati leumi mashgichim but still want to eat other OU products - the exact definition of being political.

He calls that politics or affiliation.

[Ver hut gazugt]

I find it funny that you write "OU Israel is the same as OU USA" as being political, as the OU themselves state this numerous times on their website. It's the exact same standards (with Israel being stricter about some things)
https://oukosher.org/faqs/ou-israel/

The only people I hear saying it is different is Americans who don't want to eat from dati leumi mashgichim but still want to eat other OU products - the exact definition of being political.

not sure if this is accurate but I remember hearing that they except video cameras in Israel for chalav Yisrael, not so in the USA.

[Moshe Green]

I find it funny that you write "OU Israel is the same as OU USA" as being political, as the OU themselves state this numerous times on their website. It's the exact same standards (with Israel being stricter about some things)
https://oukosher.org/faqs/ou-israel/

The only people I hear saying it is different is Americans who don't want to eat from dati leumi mashgichim but still want to eat other OU products - the exact definition of being political.

The non-political explanation i heard about OU in Israel not being the same standards is that in the US, the factories and restaurants are more western and are less likely to play Shtik on the Hechsher. This is not the case in Israel where the whole country runs on Shtik.

Therefore, when the OU has the same standards, these might be fine in the US where people play by the book (usually) but not ok in Israel where there is more likely a chance of a mess up.

[Darth1]

I find it funny that you write "OU Israel is the same as OU USA" as being political, as the OU themselves state this numerous times on their website. It's the exact same standards (with Israel being stricter about some things)
https://oukosher.org/faqs/ou-israel/

The only people I hear saying it is different is Americans who don't want to eat from dati leumi mashgichim but still want to eat other OU products - the exact definition of being political.

The reason so many people think that OU Israel is different is because of the way the former head kashrus coordinator of OU Israel (Who still is a regional kashrus coordinator for OU just another region) answers questions about OU Israel.

[Alexsei]

Does OU Israel have a Webbe Rebbe?

[rbs-g1.5]

The reason so many people think that OU Israel is different is because of the way the former head kashrus coordinator of OU Israel (Who still is a regional kashrus coordinator for OU just another region) answers questions about OU Israel.

that is one of the reasons .
You can call everything politics but if in IL it is a Mizrachi organization and in America  the Kashrus branch is run by charedim that means something to many people. (and that "affiliation " difference will definitely  cause things to be done differently at times)

[avromie7]

that is one of the reasons .
You can call everything politics but if in IL it is a Mizrachi organization and in America  the Kashrus branch is run by charedim that means something to many people. (and that "affiliation " difference will definitely  cause things to be done differently at times)

OU is Chareidi?

[aygart]

The non-political explanation i heard about OU in Israel not being the same standards is that in the US, the factories and restaurants are more western and are less likely to play Shtik on the Hechsher. This is not the case in Israel where the whole country runs on Shtik.

Therefore, when the OU has the same standards, these might be fine in the US where people play by the book (usually) but not ok in Israel where there is more likely a chance of a mess up.

Ah but then what about OU products coming from China?

[Moshe Green]

OU is Chareidi?

Yes, Rav Belsky A"H and Rav Shechter are Chareidi.

[aygart]

Yes, Rav Belsky A"H and Rav Shechter are Chareidi.

And Rabbi Genack?

[rbs-g1.5]

OU is Chareidi?

that is one of the reasons .
You can call everything politics but if in IL it is a Mizrachi organization and in America  the Kashrus branch is run by charedim that means something to many people. (and that "affiliation " difference will definitely  cause things to be done differently at times)