Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[TheAsh]

https://cor.ca/2014/07/kosher-camps-what-does-it-take-to-keep-a-summer-camp-kosher/

Someone explain to me why the only summer camps with reliable hashgachos are conservative or modern orthodox.

[Moshe Green]

https://cor.ca/2014/07/kosher-camps-what-does-it-take-to-keep-a-summer-camp-kosher/

Someone explain to me why the only summer camps with reliable hashgachos are conservative or modern orthodox.

conservative and modox places generally don't know or care so much about Halacha so there's much more of a chance of a mess up.

Orthodox and Frummer places generally have more knowledgeable staff so they don't need it (or feel they don't need it) as much.

I would also assume that the head chef and head waiter have the responsibility to make sure that there are no mess ups as well and that they should keep their eyes out for such things. I know in the Mir Yeshiva that anything taken out of the dining room is assumed treif and there are totally separate milk and fleishig kitchens. I would assume that frummer camps have strict rules in place as well.

[yitzgar]

https://cor.ca/2014/07/kosher-camps-what-does-it-take-to-keep-a-summer-camp-kosher/

Someone explain to me why the only summer camps with reliable hashgachos are conservative or modern orthodox.

I would guess that most yeshivish type camps have a Rov in charge of all halachic issues in the camp and (ostensibly) have a mashgiach/kitchen staff that asks all questions to him. He is probably in charge of "setting up'' the kitchen too.

[JMHO]

https://cor.ca/2014/07/kosher-camps-what-does-it-take-to-keep-a-summer-camp-kosher/

Someone explain to me why the only summer camps with reliable hashgachos are conservative or modern orthodox.

Because parents don't ask and naively assume everything is ok.

The groups you mentioned want to send to a 'Jewish' camp and publicized oversight helps sell that.

[aygart]

https://cor.ca/2014/07/kosher-camps-what-does-it-take-to-keep-a-summer-camp-kosher/

Someone explain to me why the only summer camps with reliable hashgachos are conservative or modern orthodox.

Most likely a federation policy while the "drummer" places don't want the expense because they convince themselves it can be done in-house.

[aygart]

conservative and modox places generally don't know or care so much about Halacha so there's much more of a chance of a mess up.

Orthodox and Frummer places generally have more knowledgeable staff so they don't need it (or feel they don't need it) as much.

I would also assume that the head chef and head waiter have the responsibility to make sure that there are no mess ups as well and that they should keep their eyes out for such things. I know in the Mir Yeshiva that anything taken out of the dining room is assumed treif and there are totally separate milk and fleishig kitchens. I would assume that frummer camps have strict rules in place as well.

I would guess that most yeshivish type camps have a Rov in charge of all halachic issues in the camp and (ostensibly) have a mashgiach/kitchen staff that asks all questions to him. He is probably in charge of "setting up'' the kitchen too.

Not at all correct unless you include convincing themselves but rather more like this

Because parents don't ask as just assume everything is ok.

The groups you mentioned want to send to a 'Jewish' camp and publicized oversight helps sell that.

@moko can mentioned a whole bunch of stories last year.

[Yonah]

Stumbled across this in Trader Joe's the other day - I believe that the hashgacha is SIKS (http://siks.org) - a quick search saw people looking for info back in 2017 - anyone have any more info on this hashgacha?

[Essen est zich]

Stumbled across this in Trader Joe's the other day - I believe that the hashgacha is SIKS (http://siks.org) - a quick search saw people looking for info back in 2017 - anyone have any more info on this hashgacha?

I have seen this q asked with this product but always got Not recommended regarding SIKS.

[yitzgar]

Not at all correct unless you include convincing themselves but rather more like this
@moko can mentioned a whole bunch of stories last year.

Oy. I was hoping that wasn't the case. There must be some that have rabbinical oversight, just not a formal hashgacha agency?

[moko]

Oy. I was hoping that wasn't the case. There must be some that have rabbinical oversight, just not a formal hashgacha agency?

the extent of kashrus at some well known camps is "we have a chasidishe cook" exact answei received from a camp.
On the other hand, some camps have a system locked down tight.

[Chuchum Ainer]

conservative and modox places generally don't know or care so much about Halacha so there's much more of a chance of a mess up.

Come on man. Why do you have to phrase it so condescendingly?
At least draw a line between Conservative and MO

And that's besides the fact that the "head chef" in many of your frummer camps is modern orthodox, or worse, sefardi (gasp!) so your logic is inherently unsound.

[Alexsei]

https://cor.ca/2014/07/kosher-camps-what-does-it-take-to-keep-a-summer-camp-kosher/

Someone explain to me why the only summer camps with reliable hashgachos are conservative or modern orthodox.

Because we didn't fix it yet

[MoYS]

conservative and modox places generally don't know or care so much about Halacha so there's much more of a chance of a mess up.

Orthodox and Frummer places generally have more knowledgeable staff so they don't need it (or feel they don't need it) as much.

I would also assume that the head chef and head waiter have the responsibility to make sure that there are no mess ups as well and that they should keep their eyes out for such things. I know in the Mir Yeshiva that anything taken out of the dining room is assumed treif and there are totally separate milk and fleishig kitchens. I would assume that frummer camps have strict rules in place as well.

I really don't agree

Do modern orthodox rabbis generally not know or care about halacha? If they are what difference does it make if the tzibbur is less knowledgable. I personally know a few modern orthodox rabbis (although I am not modox) and they are very much knowledgable and care about halacha. Even if they have kulos not relied on in more yeshivish circles from what I understand these kulos are not in the actual 'hashgacha', meaning the level of oversight and enforcement of policy.

Now I am speculating, but I would actually think the more yeshivish the situation the more you have people relying on there own knowledge, which is usually woefully incomplete, and pasken there own shailos. In more modern circles because they are less learned (which is also a gross overgeneralization) they will ask a rabbi.

[imayid2]

I really don't agree

Do modern orthodox rabbis generally not know or care about halacha? If they are what difference does it make if the tzibbur is less knowledgable. I personally know a few modern orthodox rabbis (although I am not modox) and they are very much knowledgable and care about halacha. Even if they have kulos not relied on in more yeshivish circles from what I understand these kulos are not in the actual 'hashgacha', meaning the level of oversight and enforcement of policy.

Now I am speculating, but I would actually think the more yeshivish the situation the more you have people relying on there own knowledge, which is usually woefully incomplete, and pasken there own shailos. In more modern circles because they are less learned (which is also a gross overgeneralization) they will ask a rabbi.

We have been through this before. There is a huge range of what goes under "MO". The places refrenced in the article are very likely a different type of MO that the Rabbis you refer to are.

[MoYS]

We have been through this before. There is a huge range of what goes under "MO". The places refrenced in the article are very likely a different type of MO that the Rabbis you refer to are.

Ah, I see

I didn't actually read the article because the date in the link seemed pretty old. I was picking on the words of OP

[Ver hut gazugt]

Is this hechsher any good ?

[yfr bachur]

Now I am speculating, but I would actually think the more yeshivish the situation the more you have people relying on there own knowledge, which is usually woefully incomplete, and pasken there own shailos.

From first hand experience - this is the sad truth.
I've posted some of these horror stories before - and remember they all happened in the span of two summers!
serving pasta infested with bugs.
keilim mixed to the point of that if you looked carefully through the grime on the sheetpans - some were painted blue on one end and red on the other.
becuase agri had a clearance sale months after the rubashkin arrest - buying OU only meat products (no additional hechsher) for a tzibur that wouldn't touch such stuff in their house.
Not takeing challa from cakes and pancakes (in commerical quanteties - it's mechuyav in challa)
The yeshivish fellow using a pareve sheetpan to bake pizza - when asked Ma zeh - the answer is "Its pareve...". Same guy, same day, using pareve sheet pan for hot dogs - same question - same answer...
Not checking eggs.
Using the deep fryer just used for frying fish to fry shnitzel - when the bachur who was "mashgiach" saw what happening, called his rav, was told "let it cool, clean it out, change the oil... chamira sakanta..." stops whats going on... leaves for a bit... comes back and finds that "we asked a magid shiur on campus and he said it's fine" (a fine magid shiur, but just that - no yoreh deah experience)
zero oversight on mixing keilim
The non jewish assistant cook wanted to use hs own private knives (you know chefs...). He claimed that "he only uses them for Kosher". The owner and main cook got in to a huge fight over it - with the yeshivish owner, who "learns all year" siding with the goyish assistant cook!!!
What did they do about the NYS kosher laws? Well, the brother in law (and silent shutaf) of the owner works for an international kashrus org in a foreign country. On the disclosure forms they wrote him as the supervising Rabbi, with his kashrus org affiliation. In my 7 years in the camp, the man was there once and needed a guided tour to help him find the kitchen. He had nothing to do with it at all.
Forget about bishul yisroel on anything done in the oven. (auto turn off when you open the door...)
Who lit the pilot light??

these are just the stories I remember of the top of my head...

All this in a camp owned by a guy from lakewood, run by people from lakewood, mainly catering to yeshivish people from lakewood/monsey/flatbush. - and gedolim from lakewood and other places came and ate there!! without doing zero checking on the kashrus! (I remember this everytime we have a discussion about a certain hotel in JLM and people say "but they say Rav Ploni ate there")

[Moshe Green]

Come on man. Why do you have to phrase it so condescendingly?
At least draw a line between Conservative and MO

And that's besides the fact that the "head chef" in many of your frummer camps is modern orthodox, or worse, sefardi (gasp!) so your logic is inherently unsound.

The guy asked why they have a Hechsher and i told him the reason. This is a purly Halachic question and thats the answer. We see this many times in the gemara that we are more careful around an Am Ha'aretz then a Chaver. Many Conservative people are more Machmir then modern orthodox. One of my wifes relatives is conservative and is very careful (in her own house, at least) for the things she knows.

I agree with you that the frum camps are making a huge mistake, as you point out, sometimes the head chef doesnt really know halacha either... (or worse, hes sefardi )

I really don't agree

Do modern orthodox rabbis generally not know or care about halacha? If they are what difference does it make if the tzibbur is less knowledgable. I personally know a few modern orthodox rabbis (although I am not modox) and they are very much knowledgable and care about halacha. Even if they have kulos not relied on in more yeshivish circles from what I understand these kulos are not in the actual 'hashgacha', meaning the level of oversight and enforcement of policy.

Now I am speculating, but I would actually think the more yeshivish the situation the more you have people relying on there own knowledge, which is usually woefully incomplete, and pasken there own shailos. In more modern circles because they are less learned (which is also a gross overgeneralization) they will ask a rabbi.

We are not talking at all about MO Rabbis at all. Halevai that all camps, Chareidi or not, would have a MO Rabbi overseeing their Kashrus.
But we are talking about a camp which isn't run by Rabbanim.

And totally agree, as we see from yfr bachur, frummer camps definitely need a mashgiach...

[imayid2]

https://cor.ca/2014/07/kosher-camps-what-does-it-take-to-keep-a-summer-camp-kosher/

Someone explain to me why the only summer camps with reliable hashgachos are conservative or modern orthodox.

The level of supervision described here seems very basic. I suspect it’s literally the ABCs of kosher that those places listed are more susceptible to and are being taken care of.  Probably isn’t giving them more mileage in avoiding complex mess ups beyond that. More religious places are probably doing that already.

Notice that Aguda of Toronto isn’t listed, despite some members of COR rabbinical board spending their summer there IIRC

[avromie7]

I'm really bothered by the insinuation by some here that a camp without a formal hechsher is serving treif.

I think what separates all the crazy stories from the others is the lack of a rav hamachshir. A posek who takes responsibility for the kashrus in the kitchen.