Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[imayid2]

I can't treat it as DE based on the generic response though.

Products that warn "may contain milk" aren't adding milk as an ingredient. If they were it would say "contains milk". FWIU it can be assumed that the warning is because of shared equipment and anything residual is batul.

[yungermanchik]

Interesting. So something can have for allergies non dairy and be considered Cholov Stam?

Things containing Casein or it's derivatives (sodium caseinate..) are not allergenic but are considered milchig. 

[MHP]

Anyone know why Y33 lost their Eida

[Darth1]

(Continuing this conversation)
From my understanding besides for the transparency issue in Eretz Yisroel there is another angle with the Kashrus in E"Y. In E"Y in the Chareidi areas you have access to top hechsherim and in other areas you are only so far away from top hechsherim. In America and the greater world outside the major frum Jewish centers (tri-state +) you don't have access to top hechsherim. To allow someone to eat kosher there may become easier because it has become shas hadchak (by choice or not is another discussion) which allows one to rely on local hechsherim partially based on the fact that you are now in that place away from central frum civilization. This does not make your standards the standards of these oot places and if you find your self in a place like Yerushalaim you have no hetter to rely on the kulos you relied on in ~insert trip report here~
In a place like Lakewood one should definitely be making sure to eat in a place that has the main stream hechsher because it aint no shas hadchak! (Im happy this doesnt seem to be an issue [@Ishtabach])

[avromie7]

(Continuing this conversation)
From my understanding besides for the transparency issue in Eretz Yisroel there is another angle with the Kashrus in E"Y. In E"Y in the Chareidi areas you have access to top hechsherim and in other areas you are only so far away from top hechsherim. In America and the greater world outside the major frum Jewish centers (tri-state +) you don't have access to top hechsherim. To allow someone to eat kosher there may become easier because it has become shas hadchak (by choice or not is another discussion) which allows one to rely on local hechsherim partially based on the fact that you are now in that place away from central frum civilization. This does not make your standards the standards of these oot places and if you find your self in a place like Yerushalaim you have no hetter to rely on the kulos you relied on in ~insert trip report here~
In a place like Lakewood one should definitely be making sure to eat in a place that has the main stream hechsher because it aint no shas hadchak! (Im happy this doesnt seem to be an issue [@Ishtabach])

This whole tier discussion is almost non-existent in the US, it's not about different standards in different places. The overwhelming majority of people eat from a huge list of hechsherim in the US, FWIU that is not the case in EY.

People in EY are much more nit-picky because that's the thing to do. It's as if someone who doesn't nitpick isn't frum.

[UKinNYS]

It's as if someone who doesn't nitpick isn't chareidi.

ftfy

[aygart]

This whole tier discussion is almost non-existent in the US, it's not about different standards in different places. The overwhelming majority of people eat from a huge list of hechsherim in the US, FWIU that is not the case in EY.

People in EY are much more nit-picky because that's the thing to do. It's as if someone who doesn't nitpick isn't frum.

Their are basically 3 tiers of hechsherim in America. There are the Triangle K type, The national hechsherim and local vaad type, and the "more machmir"/heimish type. The "top" tier (quotes to avoid discussion of whether or not they really are top) is very limited in their reach and are mainly on smaller kosher brands and establishments in limited areas. They are unable to get in to the larger producers. The national hechsherim are able to certify larger producers and work with local vaads to create a standard that will work for the vast majority of people. Their scope enables them to keep to a high enough stadard. The lowest tier is exactly that.

In Israel the top tier has enough clout to certify even the largest producers. This leaves the middle range hechsherim with much less clout and lower standards.

[Darth1]

This whole tier discussion is almost non-existent in the US, it's not about different standards in different places. The overwhelming majority of people eat from a huge list of hechsherim in the US, FWIU that is not the case in EY.

People in EY are much more nit-picky because that's the thing to do. It's as if someone who doesn't nitpick isn't frum.

If you blame people in EY as being nit-picky then that allows Americans to eat whatever they want in EY and say that its just politics/being nitpicky (which definitely may be a factor). EY has its issues. I think that one point that I haven't seen being discussed enough is the point in my previous post. In America, every hechsher on the CRC list will tell you their standards. If you went through the standards some people may not be comfortable with all of them. (See this recent post about an ORB place) There are are American hechsherim that are very open about their kulos in cholov akum, bishul yisroel, and bugs. IIUC the CRC list tells you that the standards that the kashrus agency is saying they follow is accurate (Unlike the places in EY) and that they meet a minimum level of kashrus. For many people, especially those with specific community guidelines in kashrus these standards may not be lechatchila but the ability to research is there. This allows for my previous point.

[yfr bachur]

This whole tier discussion is almost non-existent in the US, it's not about different standards in different places. The overwhelming majority of people eat from a huge list of hechsherim in the US, FWIU that is not the case in EY.

Is this really true?
I mean, my knowledge of flatbush kashrus is over a decade old, but from what I remember, there were plenty of people who would not eat from every one of the "accepted" local flatbush hechsherim. Only ate from Rav Gornish, or him and Kehila Kashrus, or only the VHROF ect... (Don't attack me on specifics, it been a long time...)

Every "chasiddishe" "heimishe" hechsher is the same? REALLY?

In EY, It's probably fair to say that the far majority of (Black hat, streimel...use whatever word you want) will eat from each one of  the big 4 plus much of the second tier (excluding what is obviously communal politics) plus whatever is their local hechsher (if there happens to be one, if there are two, just from one )

[avromie7]

Is this really true?
I mean, my knowledge of flatbush kashrus is over a decade old, but from what I remember, there were plenty of people who would not eat from every one of the "accepted" local flatbush hechsherim. Only ate from Rav Gornish, or him and Kehila Kashrus, or only the VHROF ect... (Don't attack me on specifics, it been a long time...)

Every "chasiddishe" "heimishe" hechsher is the same? REALLY?

In EY, It's probably fair to say that the far majority of (Black hat, streimel...use whatever word you want) will eat from each one of  the big 4 plus much of the second tier (excluding what is obviously communal politics) plus whatever is their local hechsher (if there happens to be one, if there are two, just from one )

It definitely exists in the US, but I think there is much more that is very widely accepted. Eating from the local hechsherim is the norm, not the exception. There are people who will ask about the hechsher on every item at a simcha, but they are few and far between. I have yet to see someone in my shul ask about the hechsher on something served at a kiddush.

[Chuchum Ainer]

Is this really true?
..
In EY, It's probably fair to say that the far majority of (Black hat, streimel...use whatever word you want) will eat from each one of  the big 4 plus much of the second tier (excluding what is obviously communal politics) plus whatever is their local hechsher (if there happens to be one, if there are two, just from one )

Who are the big 4? (I can think of three that I have always heard as being the best, but they aren't the largest. and who's the 4th?)

[Oimer-Haemes]

I didn't listen to the entire thing before posting. I just got to the part where he discusses חלב ישראל etc. He starts at 24:00 discussing whether R' Moshe's hetter is applicable nowadays in NY. Continues at 33:00 with evidence that the current מציאות isn't congruent with what R' Moshe writes about חלב הקאמפעניס, tells a story at 39:15 about how a farmer cares about every drop of milk, and could easily adulterate, and finally at 48:00 discusses the מציאות of DA Cows which remains an unresolved issue by non-CY production, and is a דאורייתא.

THIS IS BEING מוציא לעז on Chalav Stam consumers. It is undeniable that people did not hold of Rav Moshe's heter, but there is a nice chunk of our brothers that rely on the heter. People also use it for many medicines and products when there is no חלב ישראל alternative (think SIMILAC and Protein shakes for nursing homes). To say it is טריפה is a SERIOUS allegation, why are we trigger-happy to allow this information to spread, especially since many hold this is really fake news. Rabbi Katz, with all due respect, does not present the issue here in totality. There are many people that hold this is muttar, such as the OU and the Star K and the CRC. Furthermore, there is a sefer on this topic that was recently printed, where MAJOR rabbonim said there is no SPECIFIC issue of Treifos with chalav stam (i.e. it is classic chalav stam which depends if you hold like Rav Moshe or not, but no issue of Treifos). It also must be noted that NO ONE SAID IT IS A דאורייתא, as it is בטל ברוב. Rabbi Oberlander, who asserted (on the Headlines podcast) that it is דאורייתא, is mistaken about this. (since Even those that hold that there is a DA issue agree it is under 51%)

[yfr bachur]

Who are the big 4? (I can think of three that I have always heard as being the best, but they aren't the largest. and who's the 4th?)

Eida, Rubin, Shearis, Landau.

[Moshe Green]

Who are the big 4? (I can think of three that I have always heard as being the best, but they aren't the largest. and who's the 4th?)

4 biggest means a combination of trust and chumra. Not biggest.
heres a chart: Not drawn to scale. Also, low chumra or trust does not necessarily mean its treif. Just that it has certain issues that may apply.

[aygart]

4 biggest means a combination of trust and chumra. Not biggest.
heres a chart: Not drawn to scale. Also, low chumra or trust does not necessarily mean its treif. Just that it has certain issues that may apply.

At the very least this is someone's perception of that

[ushdadude]

Products that warn "may contain milk" aren't adding milk as an ingredient. If they were it would say "contains milk". FWIU it can be assumed that the warning is because of shared equipment and anything residual is batul.

This says OU-dairy and has a big dairy sticker on the front.






but than on ou website it says it's ou-de.

[avromie7]

This says OU-dairy and has a big dairy sticker on the front.






but than on ou website it says it's ou-de.

Is it from a jewish store? Are they trying to make people aware that it shouldn't be used with meat?

[ushdadude]

Is it from a jewish store? Are they trying to make people aware that it shouldn't be used with meat?

was a Jewish store. I don't know who put the sticker on though. I was also pointing out the OU-dairy designation.

[imayid2]

I was also pointing out the OU-dairy designation.

They don’t label DE anymore, so even though it clearly doesn’t contain dairy ingredients it’s labeled dairy since keilim are dairy.

[ushdadude]

They don’t label DE anymore, so even though it clearly doesn’t contain dairy ingredients it’s labeled dairy since keilim are dairy.

I've seen OU-D hundreds of times. I've never seen OU-dairy before. It's almost like they are stressing that fact.