Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[imayid2]

I heard that in any production where chocolate is an ingredient, water can’t be used for kashering because even the tiniest bit left behind will ruin the whole batch. Instead, they use fruit juice to kasher the equipment.

A Rav told me to avoid certain brands of chocolate liquor because of this and to stick only to those made in factories that are kosher year-round.

Is using fruit juice instead of water a halachic leniency, or is it considered a proper solution? Would love to hear your thoughts or any sources on this.

Keep in mind that kashering chocolate lines are generally because of the dairy used for the chocolate. Treif ingredients would be unusual in chocolate in its initial production, it’s the fillings afterwards that can be trief.
So for those not particular about DE it’s mostly a moot point.

[cholent]

I only asked one question. So if you dry it well enough will it rust at all?

You phrased it as one but it's really two - will it rust, and if it does does it prevent use for cooking

If you dry it 100% thoroughly and quickly it will not rust. It's hard to get every bit of water off but usually you'll get only a small amount of flash surface rust which will wash off with a regular dish sponge

[BESED]

You phrased it as one but it's really two - will it rust, and if it does does it prevent use for cooking

If you dry it 100% thoroughly and quickly it will not rust. It's hard to get every bit of water off but usually you'll get only a small amount of flash surface rust which will wash off with a regular dish sponge

Got it. Thanks so now @menotyou why should it be considered a broken vessel that would require מעשה אומן to repair if you could just wash and dry? Seasoning even if considered מעשה אומן is just preventative and would be a stretch to say that renders it broken

[BESED]

So how do they kasher the machinery?

Some also don’t kasher in the classical way they just push through large amounts of cocoa butter or parve chocolate to remove any mamashus and then run the kosher parve chocolate run under yad soledes to avoid bliyos

[imayid2]

Some also don’t kasher in the classical way they just push through large amounts of cocoa butter or parve chocolate to remove any mamashus and then run the kosher parve chocolate run under yad soledes to avoid bliyos

There are heimisha hashgachos that do this. For the national hashgachos it’s less of an issue, they’ll just label everything dairy.

[EliJelly]

There are heimisha hashgachos that do this. For the national hashgachos it’s less of an issue, they’ll just label everything dairy.

Heimishe hashgachos should be more strict as they have a bigger issue with CS. Which ones allow that? (My pm is open)

[avromie7]

Heimishe hashgachos should be more strict as they have a bigger issue with CS. Which ones allow that? (My pm is open)

What should be the issue with that?

[EliJelly]

What should be the issue with that?

With bliyos of CS?

[menotyou]

Got it. Thanks so now @menotyou why should it be considered a broken vessel that would require מעשה אומן to repair if you could just wash and dry? Seasoning even if considered מעשה אומן is just preventative and would be a stretch to say that renders it broken

Do you own a cast-iron pan? I do, and I definitely would not rely on drying it, and then cleaning off the rust every time to use for searing my steaks. And yes I consider myself an Uman regarding meat and it’s prep
Drying it properly would entail using the burners, hence leaving something with an impractical solution in my opinion, renders it an unfinished kli. But this is just my opinion if you’ll notice in my first post, it was posed as a question not like some of the comments here. So if there is a safek, I was recommending maybe not making a Bracha, but of course it’s possible to feel otherwise.

[avromie7]

With bliyos of CS?

I thought you were worried about the places that run it below yas soledes. The national hechsherim just mark it dairy.

[BESED]

Do you own a cast-iron pan? I do, and I definitely would not rely on drying it, and then cleaning off the rust every time to use for searing my steaks. And yes I consider myself an Uman regarding meat and it’s prep
Drying it properly would entail using the burners, hence leaving something with an impractical solution in my opinion, renders it an unfinished kli. But this is just my opinion if you’ll notice in my first post, it was posed as a question not like some of the comments here. So if there is a safek, I was recommending maybe not making a Bracha, but of course it’s possible to feel otherwise.

No I don’t own a cast-iron pan of any sort hence why I asked above about the ramifications of using without the seasoning on it.
But would you consider a kli that’s rusty and can be washed off a broken kli? Is it מעשה אומן to wash off rust?

[menotyou]

No I don’t own a cast-iron pan of any sort hence why I asked above about the ramifications of using without the seasoning on it.
But would you consider a kli that’s rusty and can be washed off a broken kli? Is it מעשה אומן to wash off rust?

Short answer no one will buy a cast iron pan and use w/o seasoning because either you will eat rust or won’t eat from it because it’s not going to be easily usable

[BESED]

Short answer no one will buy a cast iron pan and use w/o seasoning because either you will eat rust or won’t eat from it because it’s not going to be easily usable

What you didn’t answer is if you consider removing rust מעשה אומן or not because I believe it was mentioned earlier that only if it requires מעשה אומן is it considered a broken kli.

[menotyou]

What you didn’t answer is if you consider removing rust מעשה אומן or not because I believe it was mentioned earlier that only if it requires מעשה אומן is it considered a broken kli.

It’s a moot point if removing rust is a מעשה אומן no one will use it knowing that they will have to work so hard to clean it, (so it’s just as broken as a shed that is not waterproofed) rather they will season it so it doesn’t get rusty. So then if you can accept that seasoning is a מעשה אומן…

[menotyou]

The issue is very simple if something can no longer be used for its intended purpose then it is not that kli.

[BESED]

It’s a moot point if removing rust is a מעשה אומן no one will use it knowing that they will have to work so hard to clean it, (so it’s just as broken as a shed that is not waterproofed) rather they will season it so it doesn’t get rusty. So then if you can accept that seasoning is a מעשה אומן…

For arguments sake I can accept that seasoning is מעשה אומן but you first have to get there you literally skipped step one and went right to step two. You are considering something that is perfectly usable for now but will be hard to use later a broken kli.
That’s something I don’t get.

[BESED]

The issue is very simple if something can no longer be used for its intended purpose then it is not that kli.

Again if it requires מעשה אומן.
Would you consider a rusty pot exempt from tevila?
Would the removing of the rust and thereby making it unusable again deem it made by a Jew?

[BESED]

The OU and Badatz don't allow kashering with chocolate.

I believe that the star-k also doesn’t allow kashering with chocolate in fact they don’t certify as parve only if there are two separate lines or if was kashered using water

[shwarmabob]

Some also don’t kasher in the classical way they just push through large amounts of cocoa butter or parve chocolate to remove any mamashus and then run the kosher parve chocolate run under yad soledes to avoid bliyos

interesting. the untempered chocolate melting point is somewhere under yad soledes

[menotyou]

Again if it requires מעשה אומן.
Would you consider a rusty pot exempt from tevila?yes unless you tovel your non klei achilah
Would the removing of the rust and thereby making it usable again deem it made by a Jew? I believe I answered that-it’s not usable for its intended purpose.