Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[skyguy918]

...and not about making sure there is no chazer in the flavorings.

What are you saying? I can't imagine any hechsher has their posek doing this, boots on the ground, period.

[churnbabychurn]

Facts on the ground

Says you. And maybe someone with the SN "moko". 

[ExGingi]

Misspelling names is not disrespectful.

It actually is arrogant and disrespectful. However, in your defense, I didn't sense that you were being disrespectful to the individual Rabbonim mentioned.

[Shkop]

Everywhere else besides for a handful of American kasruth organizations, the rabbonim take responsibility for the kashrus. They are not just there to deal with shailos that come up.

Besides, Rabbi Belsky ZTZL is no longer weekly supervising OU headquarters. Who replaced him?

You make it sound like it's all about halachic decisions, and not about making sure there is no chazer in the flavorings.
Nothing can be further than the truth.

The handful of organizations include the "big five", which certifies over 80 percent of kosher food in the U.S. Your attempt at marginalizing them doesn't fly.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_certification_agency

Do you have a problem with mashgichim or is that another no-no in your book? Things like yotzei vnichnas. You think companies can't play games even when halachic controls are in place? It's nice that you love heimish kashruth organizations but the idea that the big five are 1) small or 2) incompetent is more in your head than anywhere else.

[Shkop]

What are you saying? I can't imagine any hechsher has their posek doing this, boots on the ground, period.

exactly.

[avromie7]

K great.

I hope you're not imposing your chumros on your wife, and especially not on your kids.

[aygart]

Read through these posts of yours and you will see that your issue has been somewhat incoherent

A bona fide left wing modern orthodox organization is very well defined though.

Who leads the kashruth division? Who does he answer too?

I would hope this is true. If not we have a problem.. everyone is relying on basically nothing but a large prosperous non-profit...

The fact that they are "professional", and "scholarly" (or ask the right scholars), is very well established. This is actually the reason everyone thinks they are amazing.
To me, the primary requirement as a kashrus organization is the reliability of it's leadership. We are litteraly relying on these people, we need to trust and respect them.
we hold them in some form of esteem. - in the rest of the world hechsherim are given by either rabbonim or botei din. Not political organizations.

Is everyone totally obvious to this  distinction?!?

The OU as an organization is driven by profits and reputation. I am looking for hechsherim that are driven by yiras shomayim or at least someone perceived as one is telling you it's OK.
Professionalism and expertise are also crucial. But secondary.

This
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13937.msg1860922.msg#1860922

OMG

I didn't say that. There was a big IF. if we apply politics to kashrus then we have a problem. This is something henche was doing. Not I.

The OU the issue is that there is no figure head or rabbinic board that the organization answers to, (that I personally know of,) and would be comfortable with blindly relying on.

+100

As a layman, all I can rely on is a well known rabinic figure telling me it's kosher. I'd love to better understand how the system rally works.
I think there is a lot of mystery about how things magically are considered totally kosher...

Everywhere else besides for a handful of American kasruth organizations, the rabbonim take responsibility for the kashrus. They are not just there to deal with shailos that come up.

Besides, Rabbi Belsky ZTZL is no longer weekly supervising OU headquarters. Who replaced him?

You make it sound like it's all about halachic decisions, and not about making sure there is no chazer in the flavorings.
Nothing can be further than the truth.

I know very well what it is known for. I'm questioning this whole perception. What is it based on? Who is behind it? Who is watching the watchers?

So far, in this whole thread, the best answers I get are A) rabbi Genack or B) perception is enough.

[aygart]

Facts on the ground

Is the real answer

Says you. And maybe someone with the SN "moko". 

Untrue. This is what you will hear from just about anyone involved in kashrus. I have yet to hear from one (other than maybe Yudel Shain depending on the day and how it fits the agenda of the week) of those who I consider to be reliable in kashrus that the OU is not from the most reliable in supervision. This includes some of the most reputable heimishe hechsherim. They will say that they will research to ensure that some of the psakim they don't want to rely upon mostly as chumros and then use their products. They will try to find out about the supervision too but that is not the main thing.

The OU is extremely transparent and I have extensive experience with that transparency. Their reputation is not simply a PR machine but rather has been earned by those who know having seen that the reputation is deserved.

The man at the top is definitely Rabbi Genack. I understand that you are concerned about this, but he is not alone in running the OU. There is a whole hierarchysauch as Rabbi Luban and Rabbi Elefant and others. Almost all, albeit not all, of the RCs are congregational rabbis or worthy of that in their own right. You better bet may be to get to know some RCs to ask questions and get a feel for various products. You seem to be speaking more from ignorance and having a bad feeling than due to anything coherent.

[Emkay]

+100

As a layman, all I can rely on is a well known rabinic figure telling me it's kosher. I'd love to better understand how the system rally works.
I think there is a lot of mystery about how things magically are considered totally kosher...

The word isn't "mystery", it's ignorance. And that's no one's fault but your own.

[Yehuda57]

I know very well what it is known for. I'm questioning this whole perception. What is it based on? Who is behind it? Who is watching the watchers?

So far, in this whole thread, the best answers I get are A) rabbi Genack or B) perception is enough.

It seems that everyone here is basically of one mind in responding to you.

If you truly wanted to be machmir and discriminate heavily on what hechsherim you use, no one would have an issue. Your issue seems to be more boycotting Modern Orthodoxy (if you knew how much they relied on Chabad mashgichim, you'd boycott even faster).

But even if your issue is questioning the reliability, what keeps on being repeated is that the OU is extremely reliable in that they are experts in modern day food production and halacha, and they are extremely consistent and systematic.

Even the many who do not rely on the kulos and heterim OU does, rely on their process and transparency to know what they can and cannot eat.

Their advisory board is public. Their rabbanim are public. As are their psakim and methodology - arguably more so than any other hechsher.

The very "Heimishe" hechsherim you are so willing to trust, themselves trust the OU implicitly.

Those are the facts on the ground.

Your real issues of money and/or politics sadly affects virtually every single hechsher. You have HUGE blind spots when it comes to modern orthodox (and Chabad), which is what drives you to boycott.

Generally, what people who are looking to be machmir do is find someone they trust who is involved in the field, and they will tell you what type of products of the OU (and the OK, and every other K) you can rely on without worry and which products may be problematic.

My father has worked in hashgacha for more than three decades. Some of what he himself certifies as kosher, he does not eat. (on the issue of chalav stam, for instance, he lands to the right of @Freddie but it is approved by the hechsher.) Even though my father is not technically on the Beis Din that gives the hechsher, you can bet that when Rabbi Rubin, Levy or Genack have a question about a product, they'll quicker be calling his number than the dayan who's name is on the hechsher. He was the one in the factory, not the dayan.

If you or any other non kashrus expert calls him, he'll gladly let you know exactly what shitah, kulah or psak they relied on to certify any specific product. Same thing with the OU, OK and others. Though they may approve certain items, they'll let you know that it wouldn't meet your standards if you picked up the phone and called.

There are many bnei Torah who actually know what producing cranberries entails, and are only too happy to share their knowledge. You'd do well to ask them, rather than "blindly follow" someone who's name happens to be on a package and isn't modern orthodox. But again, that's only if your motive is being more discriminating in your keeping of kashrus and not the Mitzvah of החרמת מאדערן ארטאדאקס.

[thaber]

One point to add, or be aware of, is that all kashrus supervision is a money maker and operating as a business, usually a non profit.
So in a sense the smaller hashgochos have more negiyus than the individual RCs or decision makers at a larger organization

[Shkop]

Read through these posts of yours and you will see that your issue has been somewhat incoherent

More like bizarre. Sounds like a desperate attempt to delegitimize people and organizations viewed a less right wing. 

Learn the facts first, then come back and attack. Maybe then there can be a sane discussion about the pros and cons of the large kashrus organizations vs the heimish ones. Attacking AND not knowing what you're talking about is a super turn off.

[ExGingi]

One point to add, or be aware of, is that all kashrus supervision is a money maker and operating as a business, usually a non profit.
So in a sense the smaller hashgochos have more negiyus than the individual RCs or decision makers at a larger organization

And this is only my gut feeling, but in a way I feel like the well established ones that have been around for a while, actually had a certain mission in making kosher food available. Whereas all the Hechsherim that popped up in the last decade (or two), have money as their primary (if not only) motivation (though some were started for well known political reasons, especially in EY, so it's not only money ). And the more they use the word Badatz, Mehadrin etc., the less I feel comfortable trusting them - though as I said, it's just a personal gut feeling, nothing scientific.

[Yehuda57]

And this is only my gut feeling, but in a way I feel like the well established ones that have been around for a while, actually had a certain mission in making kosher food available. Whereas all the Hechsherim that popped up in the last decade (or two), have money as their primary (if not only) motivation (though some were started for well known political reasons, especially in EY, so it's not only money ). And the more they use the word Badatz, Mehadrin etc., the less I feel comfortable trusting them - though as I said, it's just a personal gut feeling, nothing scientific.

This is a vital point. Hashgacha is a multi million dollar industry - Perhaps multi billion dollar. I'd sooner rely on someone who is a salaried worker for a big hechsher and gets no personal financial kickback from certifying a product or company, than an individual who runs his own smaller hechsher where tremendous amounts of money are at stake personally your each product. That is one tough challenge to face.

[ExGingi]

This is a vital point. Hashgacha is a multi million dollar industry - Perhaps multi billion dollar. I'd sooner rely on someone who is a salaried worker for a big hechsher and gets no personal financial kickback from certifying a product or company, than an individual who runs his own smaller hechsher where tremendous amounts of money are at stake personally your each product. That is one tough challenge to face.

Indeed. But the salaried person isn't a solution unless the big organization is powerful with a strong backbone (as Landa BB and Badatz Eida Chareidis are purported to be). If the organization has a financial stake in it, they might faster switch the mashgiach than lose an account.

I know of people who left Shchita because they didn't like what they saw and couldn't withstand the pressure.

The problem nowadays is much bigger (especially in EY) where you have some major newcomers (that obviously got into it for nothing other than the money - they had their own positions within a local Rabbanut previously, and when they saw the big $$$ set up their own independent shop). So Elite can abandon Badatz Eida Chareidis (which seems to have rounded certain corners for them in the past) and pick up Westheim instead. Strauss can abandon Landa BB and pick up Rubin (and have more products certified as "mehadrin") etc. etc.

And when Tara decides to "upgrade" and move to Badatz Eida Chareidis, they encounter a problem of standards, and slap Westheim on the other products (supposedly the issue is relying on cameras for CY or not).

[churnbabychurn]

The funny thing is, that after all of these passionate comments, trying to "educate" me on how wonderful the OU is, I have learned absolutely nothing that I hadn't already heard for years.

To summarize, the OU is great but if you really care you should get to know individual products and mashgichim.. 
Thanks. This is exactly what EVERYONE always says about the OU. and it does nothing for me.

[aygart]

The funny thing is, that after all of these passionate comments, trying to "educate" me on how wonderful the OU is, I have learned absolutely nothing that I hadn't already heard for years.

To summarize, the OU is great but if you really care you should get to know individual products and mashgichim.. 
Thanks. This is exactly what EVERYONE always says about the OU. and it does nothing for me.

Eating other hechsherim may not help much. They may be machmir on some things and meikil on others. I know of some cases like that.

It is not so difficult to get to know people who can give you real answers which will help you better that the incoherence posted here.

[churnbabychurn]

I'll end my part of the discussion on the OU topic with this: ( otherwise עוד מעט וסקלוני)

[churnbabychurn]

Eating other hechsherim may not help much. They may be machmir on some things and meikil on others. I know of some cases like that.

It is not so difficult to get to know people who can give you real answers which will help you better that the incoherence posted here.

Nothing incoherent here at all.
. I don't think I understand hashgacha. I just look at leadership. That's was my point all along.

[moko]

The funny thing is, that after all of these passionate comments, trying to "educate" me on how wonderful the OU is, I have learned absolutely nothing that I hadn't already heard for years.

To summarize, the OU is great but if you really care you should get to know individual products and mashgichim.. 
Thanks. This is exactly what EVERYONE always says about the OU. and it does nothing for me.

and having ההג"ק, דומ"ץ or some other acronym in front of a name makes you feel better? I advise to research every heimeshe product as well.