Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[ExGingi]

ou relays on no one they are a legit organization best running  kashrus agency in the usa maybe even the world

There’s no such thing as not relying on anyone in today’s kashrus world. Relying doesn’t make someone not legit.

[yitzgar]

ou relays on no one they are a legit organization best running  kashrus agency in the usa maybe even the world

You have inside knowledge?

[thaber]

Does anyone know about Teva meat from costco? its under the OU and Reb Dovid Miller from monsey, but I can't seem to find out much about R' Dovid Miller, besides a ZMAN article, which I definitely don't consider reliable.

Anyway, to answer your question, teva is a LA based company, and I am pretty sure it was started by two chassidishe yungerleit. Rabbi Miller has a shul at 68 Carlton road in Monsey.
Interestingly, it seems to be owned by Golden west did group, which explains how they got into Costco and trader Joe's
http://eriklitmanovich.com

[moko]

Is that true with meat? Or is the other way around, with the Chassidishe hechsher being the primary, and the OU mostly relying on it?

+100

[moko]

Anyway, to answer your question, teva is a LA based company, and I am pretty sure it was started by two chassidishe yungerleit. Rabbi Miller has a shul at 68 Carlton road in Monsey.
Interestingly, it seems to be owned by Golden west did group, which explains how they got into Costco and trader Joe's
http://eriklitmanovich.com

Rabbi Miller was also an RC for the OU in charge of meat for many years.
http://www.gwfg.com/our-brands/

[moko]

Most of the time the 2nd hechsher to the OU just sends someone twice a year to pickup the check.

-1

[ExGingi]

ou relays on no one they are a legit organization best running  kashrus agency in the usa maybe even the world

The OU definitely has some very good things about their standards, procedures, and transparency, but they are far from perfect.

I'm no expert in the world of Kashrus, but based on my understanding there are different areas, each requiring a somewhat different expertise and skill-set.

1. Food manufacturing plants. This is where the OU excel (and I believe the OK does very well too) with their extensive knowledge and capabilities in modern food technology manufacturing, wide reach and extensive database. And in these cases you are somewhat correct in that when there's an OU and another supervision, the other supervision relies heavily on the OU, sometimes they add certain extra stringencies (such as rejecting certain runs), but overall for the ingredients and maintaining overall kosher production, they rely on the OU.

2. Local food establishment supervision. This is a totally different story. The OU does have the standards and procedures, but in these cases it is much more dependent on the local Mashgiach and the owner of the establishment. I don't know what their standards and procedures are, but I'm sure they are quite transparent and can be asked. In this area they are not necessarily better or worse than others, they just have their standards. It's not common to have a dual supervision on a food establishment, but it's likely that in places where those exist, the OU might be relying on the other supervision for mashgiach hiring and oversight.

3. Shechita. This is a totally different ballgame. As hinted in another thread I started, shechita cannot objectively be deemed good or not good, it's highly subjective as it relies on the Yiras Shomaim of the Shochet (the bedika and kashering could definitely be deemed objective, but there's no-way one can call Shochet screening objective. Yes, there is an objective part to it in preparing the Shechita knife, but the actual מעשה השחיטה depends on the Yiras Shomaim of the Shoechet.) It would be an extremely long stretch to think that anyone that really cares about Glatt Kosher meat would rely on the OU for that, especially if talking about an operation that's not the size of Empire Chicken.

[avromie7]

3. Shechita. This is a totally different ballgame. As hinted in another thread I started, shechita cannot objectively be deemed good or not good, it's highly subjective as it relies on the Yiras Shomaim of the Shochet (the bedika and kashering could definitely be deemed objective, but there's no-way one can call Shochet screening objective. Yes, there is an objective part to it in preparing the Shechita knife, but the actual מעשה השחיטה depends on the Yiras Shomaim of the Shoechet.) It would be an extremely long stretch to think that anyone that really cares about Glatt Kosher meat would rely on the OU for that, especially if talking about an operation that's not the size of Empire Chicken.

I beg to differ. Even when it comes to shechita you are relying on eid echad ne'eman b'issurin, that being said if the OU's (or any hechsher) standards are below what you want, then they are basically telling you that their meat doesn't meet your standards.

Can you explain what you are saying about Empire?

[yelped]

I think you meant, is the size of Empire..

[aygart]

I beg to differ. Even when it comes to shechita you are relying on eid echad ne'eman b'issurin, that being said if the OU's (or any hechsher) standards are below what you want, then they are basically telling you that their meat doesn't meet your standards.

Can you explain what you are saying about Empire?

You need to understand that al pi chassidus there are aspects of the kavonos of the shochet etc which pass on into the meat. This is a big part of the various inyanei kedusha that chassidishe hechsherim are makpid on specifically for shochtim. I fully understand that you may not be noheig that way, but it is not without reason.

[aygart]

You have inside knowledge?

Based on what he wrote I would say he has outside propoganda.

[how]

You need to understand that al pi chassidus there are aspects of the kavonos of the shochet etc which pass on into the meat.

source?

[aygart]

source?

Hearing it from some chassidishe talmidei chachomim

[Eliyohu]

2. Local food establishment supervision. This is a totally different story. The OU does have the standards and procedures, but in these cases it is much more dependent on the local Mashgiach and the owner of the establishment. I don't know what their standards and procedures are, but I'm sure they are quite transparent and can be asked. In this area they are not necessarily better or worse than others, they just have their standards. It's not common to have a dual supervision on a food establishment, but it's likely that in places where those exist, the OU might be relying on the other supervision for mashgiach hiring and oversight.

This is one particular area that ou is much better then most in regards to mashgiach timidi, who hires them etc..

[sky121]

Can someone tell me the name of this certification?

[ExGingi]

You need to understand that al pi chassidus there are aspects of the kavonos of the shochet etc which pass on into the meat.

I have no clue what that is about. Never heard of this from a reliable Chassidishe source before, nor do I know that this could have any halachic standing. It would be terrible if a shochet is focused on "kavonos" rather than making sure that the shechita is 100% al pi din without any of the 5 things that can invalidate the shechita from being kosher.

[aygart]

I have no clue what that is about. Never heard of this from a reliable Chassidishe source before, nor do I know that this could have any halachic standing. It would be terrible if a shochet is focused on "kavonos" rather than making sure that the shechita is 100% al pi din without any of the 5 things that can invalidate the shechita from being kosher.

Of course, but why would the OU have a harder time with basic yiras shomayim than a chassidishe hechsher?

[ExGingi]

Of course, but why would the OU have a harder time with basic yiras shomayim than a chassidishe hechsher?

It's not about a harder time, it's about what they might consider in evaluating it (which is really not something objective, though some use objective standards as a screening test, such as mikvah, dress code, shaving, etc.). Just ask CBC.

[aygart]

It's not about a harder time, it's about what they might consider in evaluating it (which is really not something objective, though some use objective standards as a screening test, such as mikvah, dress code, shaving, etc.). Just ask CBC.

If that is the question then I would be more comfortable with someone who evaluates based on evaluating yiras shomayim itself over someone evaluating an action that technically can be done by anyone on the street and is no real indication of what matters. A rav hamachshir who is makpid on those items told me very specifically that it is because of reasons al pi chassidus and the effect the shochet has on the meat that he is makpid on those things and that he does not consider it to be kashrus related at all.

[Shkop]

It's not about a harder time, it's about what they might consider in evaluating it (which is really not something objective, though some use objective standards as a screening test, such as mikvah, dress code, shaving, etc.). Just ask CBC.

If OU does not have a harder time  than chassidishe hechsherim finding a shochet with Yiras Shamayim because basing authenticity on things like amount of times one goes to the mikvah isn't objective, why did you write that it would be an extremely long stretch to think that anyone that really cares about Glatt Kosher meat would rely on the OU for that

Your words seem rather contradictory.