Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[aygart]

must be an age related issue

Experience is commonly age related.

[thaber]

I don’t quite know what you mean.
I’ll just say, Raisins is what set me off, I saw a sign from a heimeshe hechsher that it’s problematic, but most national organizations say it’s ok. I was curious to understand why that is, is it a disagreement in Halacha? Metzious? So I stated making some phone calls. First thing I was told by someone in a national hechsher, is that even generally good hechsherim can be woefully inept in these inyanim. Some are simply more on top of their game than other. Or have interesting shitos that you or your LOR might not be comfortable with.
No need to pick on this example. I’m simply explaining why there are people who don’t trust every organizations about these things. They may have looked into it a bit. Their LOR might have. You don’t want to? Knock yourself out, but there is no need to be antagonistic about it..

Somebody made an accusation? If anything I said is interpreted as such it was with carefulness.

That's how I read that comment, yes.

[imayid2]

That's how I read that comment, yes.

How would you suggest conveying this important info in a more careful way than that. I’m asking honestly.

[thaber]

How would you suggest conveying this important info in a more careful way than that. I’m asking honestly.

Honestly, not sure what info you were trying to convey, I'm still not sure what you were mechadesh, other than a possibility of an infested batch of rice. I've seen plenty of alerts about infestation in barley or rice from the certifying agency in the past so I'm not sure how we got to dumping on ordinarily reliable hashgochos.

[imayid2]

Honestly, not sure what info you were trying to convey, I'm still not sure what you were mechadesh, other than a possibility of an infested batch of rice. I've seen plenty of alerts about infestation in barley or rice from the certifying agency in the past so I'm not sure how we got to dumping on ordinarily reliable hashgochos.

This latter part of the conversation has nothing to do with the rice, nor with its certifying agency, which is a above standard hashgacha in these inyanim.

[thaber]

This latter part of the conversation has nothing to do with the rice, nor with its certifying agency, which is a above standard hashgacha in these inyanim.

Ok. So in a nutshell, what was the chidush? What was the point you were trying to get across?

[imayid2]

Ok. So in a nutshell, what was the chidush? What was the point you were trying to get across?

You asserted I made an accusation. You pointed to a post I made. Yet you don’t find a any chiddush there. So, in what way is it accusatory?
I have been making the rather simple point that in regards to kosher certification it’s wise to be an educated consumer. I’d imagine you agree.

[imayid2]

I'm still not sure what you were mechadesh, other than a possibility of an infested batch of rice.

Is this for real?
Listen I’m merely passing on information I’ve obtained about this case for those that care. You are entitled to disregard it at your own risk.

[dealmaster]

That's why I follow the national hechsherim and not the heimishe hechsherim. Do you remember when a heimishe hechsher put out a letter saying grey goose vodka is treif without evidence?

to make a rule of national vs heimish is ridiculous, each category has some who are reliable and some that are lousy. How small minded is it to lump all hiemish hechsherim in the same non-competent category because 1 of them put out a statement without evidence? Also in regards to national hechshierim, they are often times relying on a kulah which leaves room for more problems, I.e. the kulah it self may not be something that your standard of halachik observance allows for, you just simply don’t know what is being relied on. And hechsherim change policy ( animal Taurine for example) if in the first place the hechsher would have taken the stringent opinion this would not have been an issue. Always do your due diligence

[avromie7]

to make a rule of national vs heimish is ridiculous, each category has some who are reliable and some that are lousy. How small minded is it to lump all hiemish hechsherim in the same non-competent category because 1 of them put out a statement without evidence? Also in regards to national hechshierim, they are often times relying on a kulah which leaves room for more problems, I.e. the kulah it self may not be something that your standard of halachik observance allows for, you just simply don’t know what is being relied on. And hechsherim change policy ( animal Taurine for example) if in the first place the hechsher would have taken the stringent opinion this would not have been an issue. Always do your due diligence

I don't blame you for not following, but it was a continuation of the discussion that started here.

My LOR told me to rely on the OU, OK, CRC, and Star-k when it comes to toilaim.

Now back to your point, sure there are times that a national hechsher relies on a kulah that I don't, but otherwise eid echad ne'eman b'issurin.

[imayid2]

Now back to your point, sure there are times that a national hechsher relies on a kulah that I don't, .

How do you know when? Did you omit some guidelines from your LOR?

but otherwise eid echad ne'eman b'issurin.

You might want to see the תבואת שור about this.

[avromie7]

How do you know when? Did you omit some guidelines from your LOR?

Not in regards to toilaim. Tuna fish comes to mind.

You might want to see the תבואת שור about this.

R' Moshe Feinstein is good enough for me. See below from R' Reuven Feinstein.

[imayid2]

.R' Moshe Feinstein is good enough for me. See below from R' Reuven Feinstein.

Yes he did have an interesting opinion on this. You’re certainly entitled to follow it. Though I hope you respectfully understand those that don’t.

[avromie7]

Yes he did have an interesting opinion on this. You’re certainly entitled to follow it. Though I hope you respectfully understand those that don’t.

I have no issue with anyone following halacha as they learn it from their rebbeim. Quite the contrary, that's what should be done. Personal "chumros" and hergeshim is a different story.

[thaber]

I'm responding as respectfully as I can, to clarify my point.

You asserted I made an accusation. You pointed to a post I made. Yet you don’t find a any chiddush there. So, in what way is it accusatory?
I have been making the rather simple point that in regards to kosher certification it’s wise to be an educated consumer. I’d imagine you agree.

you called hechsheirim inept, and woefully so. you agreed it was accusatory and asked how to say it better. I asked what "it" was, and you're saying to be educated. so the answer to your question is - say to be educated without throwing hashgochas and the rabbonim behind them under the bus.
And of course, we all know about OU tuna fish. I don't eat it. that's a good example of being an educated consumer, and one that comes up weekly here, so we all know it.

Is this for real?
Listen I’m merely passing on information I’ve obtained about this case for those that care. You are entitled to disregard it at your own risk.

Again, you did so based on your limited exposure. And then gave a hard time to anyone who rationally pointed out that it may be limited. And proceeded to put the blame on the hashgochas and their rabbonim.

Yes he did have an interesting opinion on this. You’re certainly entitled to follow it. Though I hope you respectfully understand those that don’t.

Hagaon Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L didn't "have an interesting opinion". He wrote a brilliant teshuva on the sugya. Please bring Maareh Mekomos of those who are choilek, and please make sure you understand a sugya with clarity before dismissing the poisek hador as having an interesting opinion.

I'm only trying to keep the respect due to Talmidei Chachamim of stature intact. Personal chumras and hanhagos are 1000% ok, and I'm all for education and information. But please try to frame it in a way that isn't making someone else 'wrong'. Unless, like KLBD, tablet K or triangle K, the mainstream halachik community considers them to be wrong

[imayid2]

Again, you did so based on your limited exposure. And then gave a hard time to anyone who rationally pointed out that it may be limited.

Define limited. What was my exposure?

And proceeded to put the blame on the hashgochas and their rabbonim.

I did? Where?

. Hagaon Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L didn't "have an interesting opinion". He wrote a brilliant teshuva on the sugya. Please bring Maareh Mekomos of those who are choilek, and please make sure you understand a sugya with clarity before dismissing the poisek hador as having an interesting opinion.

I believe I quoted one. And ח”ו I wasn’t dismissive. The subject of עד אחד נאמן באיסורים and נאמנות is beyond this forum. And is way beyond what this whole discussion was about. It was simply to acknowledge that kashrut organizations aren’t created equal. They have their respective strengths and weaknesses. Feel free to reword this point in the most respectful way possible.

[imayid2]

Hagaon Rav Moshe Feinstein ZT"L didn't "have an interesting opinion". He wrote a brilliant teshuva on the sugya. Please bring Maareh Mekomos of those who are choilek, and please make sure you understand a sugya with clarity before dismissing the poisek hador as having an interesting opinion.

This isn’t adding up. @avromie7 has correctly asserted, to our specific context
regarding education,  that according to Rav Moshe as presented by his children (he doesn't exactly outline this in his tshevos,) nemanus is a reason to not educate yourself too much about the policies of different organizations. By being somech on nemanus your will be immune to the outcome of a flawed policy.
You find it dismissive to point out this isn't universally accepted by any stretch of the imagination. You self righteously demand mareh mekomos.
Yet at the same time you yourself write, in your own words

I'm all for education and information.

Dunno how this makes any sense.

[aygart]

You might want to see the תבואת שור about this.

Citation?

[aygart]

It is not clear at all that עד אחד נאמן applies If the difference is that they are relying on a more lenient opinion. We are fully trusting them that the item complies with that opinion.

[Alexsei]

Unless, like KLBD, tablet K or triangle K, the mainstream halachik community considers them to be wrong

Is KLBD really in the same category as the two K's you mentioned?