Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[imayid2]

Okay so it is your svara that it is limited and you have no source for it?

No, it’s pashut that this has nothing to do with עד״א נאמן and it’s your sevara(?) that it is and you have no source for the extension.

[aygart]

No, it’s pashut that this has nothing to do with עד״א נאמן and it’s your sevara(?) that it is and you have no source for the extension.

If it is not your svara then please tell me a source that says what you are saying.

Right now you are saying "no it is not my svara, I consider it pashut" Isn't considering it pashut a svara?

[imayid2]

If it is not your svara then please tell me a source that says what you are saying.

Right now you are saying "no it is not my svara, I consider it pashut" Isn't considering it pashut a svara?

It’s not my svara that the cases in the Gemora/poskim are talking about someone who’s testifying first hand how it’s kosher, that’s the fact. You are claiming it includes such cases, the onus is on you to prove so.

[aygart]

It’s not my svara that the cases in the Gemora/poskim are talking about someone who’s testifying first hand how it’s kosher, that’s the fact. You are claiming it includes such cases, the onus is on you to prove so.

Cna you give a yes or no about whether you have a source that it is limited to these cases? Do you or don't you? You consider it the simple understanding. I get that, but do you have a specific source that backs this up?

[avromie7]

It’s not my svara that the cases in the Gemora/poskim are talking about someone who’s testifying first hand how it’s kosher, that’s the fact. You are claiming it includes such cases, the onus is on you to prove so.

When someone testifies he shechted an animal, does he also tell you how he checked the knife?

[imayid2]

When someone testifies he shechted an animal, does he also tell you how he checked the knife?

רוב מצויים אצל שחיטה מומחים הם

[imayid2]

Cna you give a yes or no about whether you have a source that it is limited to these cases? Do you or don't you? You consider it the simple understanding. I get that, but do you have a specific source that backs this up?

Not offhand would have to check.

Can you give a yes or no if you have a source that it extends?

[aygart]

Not offhand would have to check.

Can you give a yes or no if you have a source that it extends?

יו"ד קכ"ז ס"ד וע"ש לבוש ס"א וט"ז ס"ק ו בסופו ועבה"ג עליו וגם לדברי הש"ך יתיר בנד"ד

The issue here is that many don't understand the need for a formal system. Once AKO or even a hechsher comes in you are still relying on this to be matir. The most a hechsher can be telling you is that they have a system set up. Any time you eat at someone's house there is no chiyuv to ask which butcher they bought the meat from.


As an aside, nice summary about the topic here.
https://minchasasher.com/he/shiur/%D7%A4%D7%A8%D7%A9%D7%94-%D7%A9%D7%99%D7%A2%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9D/%D7%A2%D7%93-%D7%90%D7%97%D7%93-%D7%A0%D7%90%D7%9E%D7%9F-%D7%91%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A1%D7%95%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9F/

[imayid2]

יו"ד קכ"ז ס"ד וע"ש לבוש ס"א וט"ז ס"ק ו בסופו ועבה"ג עליו וגם לדברי הש"ך יתיר בנד"ד

Not seeing the relevance. The guy is believed (according to the taz) even thoght it isn't בידו and we understand that he gave it to someone else to be menaker it, so he is נאמן that it is מנוקר.

When someone says "it's kosher", it's meaningless until you figure out what system he is basing that statement on.

[aygart]

Not seeing the relevance. The guy is believed (according to the taz) even thoght it isn't בידו and we understand that he gave it to someone else to be menaker it, so he is נאמן that it is מנוקר.

When someone says "it's kosher", it's meaningless until you figure out what system he is basing that statement on.

Kosher is not a system. Kosher is a metzius just like menukar where there is no need to inquire how it got to that state unlike what you wrote previously.

If there is a possibility that the person doesn't understand the processes needed that is a different story. I am not necessarily disagreeing about specific cases but rather your interpretation of the Halacha behind it.

[imayid2]

Once AKO or even a hechsher comes in you are still relying on this to be matir. The most a hechsher can be telling you is that they have a system set up.

I agree to this. Now what is that system they rely on? It is חזקות and רובs etc.

This is an important point. When you trust a hechsher it is like an עד אחד told you that the appropiate חזקות exist. If those חזקות fail and it turns out you ate treif, it it isn't the same as if you trusted an עד אחד and it turned out he was lying, which Rav Moshe has a חידוש about. Rather it's like you relied on a רוב but ended up with the miut. You can't be better than the עד who your'e relying on.

[imayid2]

Kosher is not a system. Kosher is a metzius just like menukar where there is no need to inquire how it got to that state unlike what you wrote previously.

Not sure what you mean 'kosher is a metzious". Of course you need to inquire because unlike menukar where it's clear what the guy means, you have no idea what this fellow means, or considers, "kosher".

[aygart]

Not sure what you mean 'kosher is a metzious". Of course you need to inquire because unlike menukar where it's clear what the guy means, you have no idea what this fellow means, or considers, "kosher".

Kosher in a place catering to a yeshiva crowd means mutter  to the standard generally accepted among that crowd.

[aygart]

I agree to this. Now what is that system they rely on? It is חזקות and רובs etc.

This is an important point. When you trust a hechsher it is like an עד אחד told you that the appropiate חזקות exist. If those חזקות fail and it turns out you ate treif, it it isn't the same as if you trusted an עד אחד and it turned out he was lying, which Rav Moshe has a חידוש about. Rather it's like you relied on a רוב but ended up with the miut. You can't be better than the עד who your'e relying on.

So that means you can believe without asking how he got there.

[imayid2]

Kosher in a place catering to a yeshiva crowd means mutter  to the standard generally accepted among that crowd.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Perhaps.

But because there are so many people who don't know enough about kashrus making that claim based on their ignorance of those standards, it may very well be required to ensure the guy is familiar with what is neccesary to meet those standards. Either by asking him some basic qs, or asking someone who you know is familiar with kashrus who knows him, if he knows whats neccesary.

[imayid2]

So that means you can believe without asking how he got there.

Believe who? Who got where?

[aygart]

I'm not sure I agree with this. Perhaps.

But because there are so many people who don't know enough about kashrus making that claim based on their ignorance of those standards, it may very well be required to ensure the guy is familiar with what is neccesary to meet those standards. Either by asking him some basic qs, or asking someone who you know is familiar with kashrus who knows him, if he knows whats neccesary.

This is not a question of what he means but rather about the person's capabilities.

[aygart]

Believe who? Who got where?

You are confusing issues with how the neemanus works and who can be believed. Your issue is one in the chezkas Kashrus of the person not in what it can be used for once it is established.

[imayid2]

You are confusing issues with how the neemanus works and who can be believed. Your issue is one in the chezkas Kashrus of the person not in what it can be used for once it is established.

The only thing I agree I’m confused about is about what you’re saying.

I have no issues with the chezkas Kashrus of the person.

[imayid2]

This is not a question of what he means but rather about the person's capabilities.

You have to know if he know what standards mean. He may mean that he buys good hechsheirim, but hasn’t the faintest clue how to run a kosher kitchen.