Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[Alexsei]

Is @aygart + @imayid2 the first official DDF chavrusa?

[mevinyavin]

One important point missing from the above discussion: according to Rav Berkovits, the Vaad Arba Haaratzos was kovea that eid echad neeman doesn't apply when the person is making money off of the food. Those all require a hechsher.
(He says Yerushalayim was not meshubad to the vaad, which is why until very recently, there were places like Hocker's butcher shop that had no hechsher at all.)

Also, as has been expressed in a number of ways in the thread, Rabbi Berkovits commented thus: it is all very well that eid echad neeman - but A) is the person a kosher eid? You certainly cannot say that he is if you don't know anything about him, and B) what, precisely, is he testifying? Does he know anything about issur vHeter? Not everyone does. What does he consider kosher among the commercial products he buys?

[mevinyavin]

[liosac]

One important point missing from the above discussion: according to Rav Berkovits, the Vaad Arba Haaratzos was kovea that eid echad neeman doesn't apply when the person is making money off of the food. Those all require a hechsher.
(He says Yerushalayim was not meshubad to the vaad, which is why until very recently, there were places like Hocker's butcher shop that had no hechsher at all.)

Also, as has been expressed in a number of ways in the thread, Rabbi Berkovits commented thus: it is all very well that eid echad neeman - but A) is the person a kosher eid? You certainly cannot say that he is if you don't know anything about him, and B) what, precisely, is he testifying? Does he know anything about issur vHeter? Not everyone does. What does he consider kosher among the commercial products he buys?

I guess Lakewood wasn’t either because R&S didn’t have a hechsher till recent times and was trusted across town.

Or Brooklyn. IIRC Wasn’t the first kosher takeout sans a hechsher and Rav Hunter told the owner he could tell people he would eat there?

[aygart]

Is @aygart + @imayid2 the first official DDF chavrusa?

no.

[imayid2]

Some very interesting history regarding establishments without hecsheirim/mashgichim in early America @17:11: (As for the halacha, he is missing some important points)

As for the beis hillels applicability, I tend to agree to his point here @18:45

[aygart]

The only thing I agree I’m confused about is about what you’re saying.

I have no issues with the chezkas Kashrus of the person.

You have to know if he know what standards mean. He may mean that he buys good hechsheirim, but hasn’t the faintest clue how to run a kosher kitchen.

It may not be technically part of chezkas kashrus, but I am including the capabilities of the person in that. A person who has no way of understanding whether it is set up properly cannot be considered to have a chezkas neeman on that other than to say it was outsourced. If he does not even understand the need to outsource then that can't be assumed to be a part of his saying it is kosher. This is a chisaron in the person's ability to be neeman and why I included as a part of his chezkas kashrus. It is not a part of what eid echad neeman requires. For that it suffices for the person to say "it is kosher" as the levush says.

The difference here is mainly in lomdus although there are differences l'dina.

[aygart]

One important point missing from the above discussion: according to Rav Berkovits, the Vaad Arba Haaratzos was kovea that eid echad neeman doesn't apply when the person is making money off of the food. Those all require a hechsher.
(He says Yerushalayim was not meshubad to the vaad, which is why until very recently, there were places like Hocker's butcher shop that had no hechsher at all.)

Also, as has been expressed in a number of ways in the thread, Rabbi Berkovits commented thus: it is all very well that eid echad neeman - but A) is the person a kosher eid? You certainly cannot say that he is if you don't know anything about him, and B) what, precisely, is he testifying? Does he know anything about issur vHeter? Not everyone does. What does he consider kosher among the commercial products he buys?

Bottom line is that very few yeshivos and camps have a formal hechsher. Does the Mir kitchen have one? Did it always?

[imayid2]

It may not be technically part of chezkas kashrus, but I am including the capabilities of the person in that. A person who has no way of understanding whether it is set up properly cannot be considered to have a chezkas neeman on that other than to say it was outsourced. If he does not even understand the need to outsource then that can't be assumed to be a part of his saying it is kosher. This is a chisaron in the person's ability to be neeman and why I included as a part of his chezkas kashrus. It is not a part of what eid echad neeman requires. For that it suffices for the person to say "it is kosher" as the levush says.

The difference here is mainly in lomdus although there are differences l'dina.

I wouldn’t include that in “chezkas Kashrus” which is a klal to assume the guy isn’t lying. Call it what want, but what’s your source that we would believe someone who says its kosher, when we know its in regards to something that we do not know if he has the understanding of what that entails? (We know many people do not).

[aygart]

I wouldn’t include that in “chezkas Kashrus” which is a klal to assume the guy isn’t lying. Call it what want, but what’s your source that we would believe someone who says its kosher, when we know its in regards to something that we do not know if he has the understanding of what that entails? (We know many people do not).

The question isn't if he knows what it entails but rather whether he knows what he doesn't know. If I know that I don't know what it entails then I can be believed because I would outsource it. The issue is if I think I know but don't.

[imayid2]

The question isn't if he knows what it entails but rather whether he knows what he doesn't know. If I know that I don't know what it entails then I can be believed because I would outsource it. The issue is if I think I know but don't.

Let’s say he doesn’t know that he doesn’t know. Because there are so many people that don’t know, it’s likely your responsibility to find out if he truly knows.

Also, it’s not all black or white, he may be referring to level x of Kashrus that many are comfortable with, but you aren’t (or should not be). Even if he’s targeting a specific demographic. Hearing the magic words “it’s kosher” from his mouth isn’t carte blanche freedom to get you off the hook. You need to know what he means when he says that, and if it conforms to your standards.

[aygart]

Let’s say he doesn’t know that he doesn’t know. Because there are so many people that don’t know, it’s likely your responsibility to find out if he truly knows.

Also, it’s not all black or white, he may be referring to level x of Kashrus that many are comfortable with, but you aren’t (or should not be). Even if he’s targeting a specific demographic. Hearing the magic words “it’s kosher” from his mouth isn’t carte blanche freedom to get you off the hook. You need to know what he means when he says that, and if it conforms to your standards.

Yes but due to a chisaron in his personal ability to bear witness about this not because of the requirements of eid echad neeman

[imayid2]

Yes but due to a chisaron in his personal ability to bear witness about this not because of the requirements of eid echad neeman

A chisaron in his personal ability to bear witness, means that you have not met the threshold of eid  echad neeman, no?

Also, he could technically bear witness to what he in fact does know.

[aygart]

A chisaron in his personal ability to bear witness, means that you have not met the threshold of eid  echad neeman, no?

Correct but not that in a case where eid echad neeman

You do need to find out how he knows that if you wand to claim there is an עד אחד testimony that it's kosher.

Or that

It’s talking about when they’re giving first hand uncomplicated information, I shechted this meat, I was menaker, etc.

[imayid2]

Correct but not that in a case where eid echad neeman
Or that

Not quite sure ביני ובינך מאי היא.

Technically speaking, if you ask him what exactly he means and does to ensure kosher, you may end up with a valid עד אחד נאמן that he is doing those things. Otherwise you do not.

Perhaps give another scenario where there would be a נפקמ״נ.

[aygart]

Not quite sure ביני ובינך מאי היא.

Technically speaking, if you ask him what exactly he means and does to ensure kosher, you may end up with a valid עד אחד נאמן that he is doing those things. Otherwise you do not.

Perhaps give another scenario where there would be a נפקמ״נ.

If you go into a person's house and he gives you a piece of meat

[imayid2]

If you go into a person's house and he gives you a piece of meat

Essentially what he’s telling you is that he bought it from a butcher/hechsher he considers reliable. If his standards are the same as yours that’s fine, if you have reason to think they may not be eid echad won’t change that.

[aygart]

Essentially what he’s telling you is that he bought it from a butcher/hechsher he considers reliable. If his standards are the same as yours that’s fine, if you have reason to think they may not be eid echad won’t change that.

Even if they are not his standards but he knows that they are yours he is believed.

Either way, it does seem that what you wrote before was just imprecise or misunderstood.

The rule is not that you need to find out where his knowledge came from. You just need to know our be able to assume that he is capable of being it accomplished in some way or other.

[aygart]

For the record, I've heard from someone involved in this initiative that some campus that turned down reviews has such a lax attitude towards Kashrus that I would be concerned about their house too. 

[imayid2]

Even if they are not his standards but he knows that they are yours he is believed.

If he is striving to satisfy your standards at his home, I agree.

The rule is not that you need to find out where his knowledge came from. You just need to know our be able to assume that he is capable of being it accomplished in some way or other.

Also, you need to know what someone means when they assure you “it’s kosher”. Sometimes it may be self evident. Other times you may need to ask a question or two