Kosher, Kashrus and Hechsherim Master thread

[thaber]

Been there done thatHechsherim traditionally do not give hechsherim to things which aren’t 100%. This has nothing to do with the consumers ability to lechatchila consume something that, for example, contains issur which is battul bshishim.

 Same as a hechsher would not allow it, so too a rav should not say it's OK. There's no difference between the two.
And now that we've done all that we're up to this stage:

And then do what you want. I don't care.

[imayid2]

Same as a hechsher would not allow it, so too a rav should not say it's OK. There's no difference between the two.

I have no idea what makes you say this

[thaber]

I have no idea what makes you say this

You think rabbi heineman should publicly, for the masses, say something like I would never give a hechsher to this establishment, but it's 100% lechatchila for you to eat there?
If you do then we disagree.

[imayid2]

You think rabbi heineman should publicly, for the masses, say something like I would never give a hechsher to this establishment, but it's 100% lechatchila for you to eat there?
If you do then we disagree.

I would suggest the statement read as follows: I cannot give a hechsher to something relying on bitul, סתם כלים, etc because Rav Moshe says it’s מכוער הדבר to actively certify it. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t kosher lechatchila.

Perhaps a public statement saying it’s ok would be similar to certifying it, but what should compel a Rabbi to publicly announce that it’s not lechtchila to eat something that’s batal? I would think that that’s very wrong.

[thaber]

I would suggest the statement read as follows: I cannot give a hechsher to something relying on bitul, סתם כלים, etc because Rav Moshe says it’s מכוער הדבר to actively certify it. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t kosher lechatchila.

Perhaps a public statement saying it’s ok would be similar to certifying it, but what should compel a Rabbi to publicly announce that it’s not lechtchila to eat something that’s batal? I would think that that’s very wrong.

My regesh is very much in line with the rabbanim chashuvim who tell people to avoid situations relying on bittul. That is the derech I was mekabel from my Rebbe, and it is well sourced in chazal, and is the derech of bnei Torah. I understand that in a black and white sense it could be argued to be lechatchila for the consumer. I understand this is not a universal regesh.

[imayid2]

My regesh is very much in line with the rabbanim chashuvim who tell people to avoid situations relying on bittul. That is the derech I was mekabel from my Rebbe, and it is well sourced in chazal

Where is the source in Chazal?

There are a host of מר״מ saying to the contrary, and calling it similar to מינות.

See for example ערוך השלחן סימן קטז
בדבר שכל הפוסקים מתירים חלילה להחמיר על עצמו וזה נוטה למינות.

אג״מ יו״ד ד יד
במין באינו מינו שנבטל בששים אין להחמיר… שאסור להחמיר בזה
(He allows to be machmir in other cases of bittul עיי״ש)

[thekrin]

Where is the source in Chazal?

There are a host of מר״מ saying to the contrary, and calling it similar to מינות.

See for example ערוך השלחן סימן קטז
בדבר שכל הפוסקים מתירים חלילה להחמיר על עצמו וזה נוטה למינות.

אג״מ יו״ד ד יד
במין באינו מינו שנבטל בששים אין להחמיר… שאסור להחמיר בזה
(He allows to be machmir in other cases of bittul עיי״ש)

you ever hear of אין מבטלין איסור לכתחילה?

[imayid2]

you ever hear of אין מבטלין איסור לכתחילה?

What does that have to do with what we are discussing?

[thekrin]

The reason why hechsherim do not give certification to things that rely on bitul as the op mentioned

[imayid2]

The reason why hechsherim do not give certification to things that rely on bitul as the op mentioned

So let’s say they don’t certify it for that reason, what would be the reason not to eat it?

[thekrin]

I'm not sure and not a rabbi. I was just giving you the source and rationale of what he said.

[imayid2]

I'm not sure and not a rabbi. I was just giving you the source and rationale of what he said.

Ok but it isn’t a rationale for what he said, which goes beyond certification. He’s saying to be machmir not to eat issur that was legitimately נתבטל.

[thaber]

Where is the source in Chazal?

There are a host of מר״מ saying to the contrary, and calling it similar to מינות.

See for example ערוך השלחן סימן קטז
בדבר שכל הפוסקים מתירים חלילה להחמיר על עצמו וזה נוטה למינות.

אג״מ יו״ד ד יד
במין באינו מינו שנבטל בששים אין להחמיר… שאסור להחמיר בזה
(He allows to be machmir in other cases of bittul עיי״ש)

I know. see Pischei Teshuva there at the end of קט"ז
my intention is more that of borrowing the concept of something that a shaila was aked you stay away from even if the psak is lekula. hemara in chulin I'm sure you know. I feel that the same applies here. Your facts may argue with my feelings and I accept that, but I think Reb Moshe's davar mechuyar is the same feeling.

[imayid2]

I know. see Pischei Teshuva there at the end of קט"ז
my intention is more that of borrowing the concept of something that a shaila was aked you stay away from even if the psak is lekula. hemara in chulin I'm sure you know. I feel that the same applies here. Your facts may argue with my feelings and I accept that, but I think Reb Moshe's davar mechuyar is the same feeling.

I disagree with the comparison.
A שנשאל בה חכם means that there is a tzad that the חכם was טועה. That does not apply to something that was nisbatel where there is no tzad issur at all.

Wouldn’t your understanding of Rav Moshe be nistar from the tshuva I quoted?

[thaber]

I disagree with the comparison.
A שנשאל בה חכם means that there is a tzad that the חכם was טועה. That does not apply to something that was nisbatel where there is no tzad issur at all.

Wouldn’t your understanding of Rav Moshe be nistar from the tshuva I quoted?

it's getting late but bezH will review both teshuvos tomorrow. do you have the maareh makom for the other one offhand?

[imayid2]

it's getting late but bezH will review both teshuvos tomorrow. do you have the maareh makom for the other one offhand?

יו״ד ב סימן מא
יו״ד ד, א אות ז

[mevinyavin]

IIRC the Rosh Chaburah said there's a nafka mina between something where the taam was botul versus something where there is a psak on the sofek (such as chad b'trei). One who is machmir on the former (when it wasn't bittul lechatchila) is considered a kofer (according to some), but one is permitted to be machmir on the latter.
I do remember a case where one fried shnitzel at night and realized the next morning he doesn't know if he used butter or margarine. In the fridge were (started) eight sticks of butter and one of margarine. (Sounds like the case was fake but it was told over as real.) Rabbi Berkovits said it was a case of kovua k'mechtza al mechtza by a derabonon (chicken and milk), and therefore muttar. He then added that it was permissible to throw out the shnitzel.

[Yehuda57]

I would suggest the statement read as follows: I cannot give a hechsher to something relying on bitul, סתם כלים, etc because Rav Moshe says it’s מכוער הדבר to actively certify it. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t kosher lechatchila.

Perhaps a public statement saying it’s ok would be similar to certifying it, but what should compel a Rabbi to publicly announce that it’s not lechtchila to eat something that’s batal? I would think that that’s very wrong.

I haven't read the whole discussion, but what is a hechsher if not a public statement from a rav or BD telling you it is mutar to eat that food?

[imayid2]

I haven't read the whole discussion, but what is a hechsher if not a public statement from a rav or BD telling you it is mutar to eat that food?

The way I understand it Certification is supposed to be 100% removed from any issur. That is more than merely saying it is mutar.

Here is an article making the distinction in practice regarding Canadian Whiskey
https://cor.ca/2017/10/the-true-colours-of-canadian-whisky/

So, can we drink it?
COR staff presented the above findings to its Poskim who paskened that COR may continue to allow uncertified Canadian whisky at catered events under its certification.9

Clearly, they are saying that it is mutar.
yet

CORporate Policy
It should be noted that COR certification policy does not allow for the certification of any product or beverage containing even a minute amount of issur which is batul. COR would, therefore, not consider placing its symbol on a product which contains non-kosher wine or any other non-kosher ingredient at any proportion, although it is permitted to consume the product. In the near future, one of the major brands of Canadian whisky will bear the COR label signifying that the particular brand contains either no added wine or, if wine is added, it is actually kosher certified wine.

[imayid2]

In fact, most coffee shops never wash the brew basket at home, other than a quick rinse. Definitely in those diners of old mentioned.

The diners of old had more serious issues. There were rumors that the coffee was actually fried in treif. There was hot חלב עכו"ם in the keilim (there are achronim that say to be machmir in this scenario, but it seems many were meikal if it was only kli sheini). Yet by and large the Jews populated the coffee houses in great numbers. Rav Yaakov Emden has a teshuva where he defends himself for having been seen drinking coffee from coffee houses that had these issues.